Controversial Spider-Man Opinions

[Agent Z]

Sins Past and OMD won't go away because people keep bring them up. You don't hear much about the Clone Saga anymore because people don't talk about it as much as SP & OMD.

Not really controversial, to be honest.

Sins Past I'll give you but given how many times the writers have teased undoing OMD I can't blame people too much for talking about it. Also OMD isn't as old as the Clone Saga so it's still relatively recent.

[Mister Mets]

Sins Past I'll give you but given how many times the writers have teased undoing OMD I can't blame people too much for talking about it. Also OMD isn't as old as the Clone Saga so it's still relatively recent.

Clone Saga fans also did get excited about every hint that Ben Reilly might return/ be referenced.

[Tuck]

Sins Past and OMD won't go away because people keep bring them up. You don't hear much about the Clone Saga anymore because people don't talk about it as much as SP & OMD.

Not really controversial, to be honest.

The Clone Saga didn't alter 20 years of canon or the portrayal of a key character and event in the Spider-Man mythos.

The first one: A lot of the criticism seems to have a nasty undertone of classic slut shaming. Basically the whole "It turned the pure, beautiful love of Peter's life into a sullied whore who would sleep with the creepy dad of one of her friends!!!"-angle. .

Can't read minds, so I don't know about individuals. But she transgressed against Peter, even if you want to buy into the "they were on a break" theory that is nowhere in the story or any Marvel comic. I think to an extent we sometimes get into an iffy area with sexual mores because of past repression and such. But infidelity is a valid thing to criticize. As is hiding a pregnancy (even if they had been Peter's kids) from someone you are pressuring to marry you. (In fact, it would be legal grounds for annulment if Peter were to find out after they got married.)

And in reality, had this come to light at the time and Gwen lived, it could very well have had a negative impact on her friendship with Harry too.

[Phantom Roxas]

The first one: A lot of the criticism seems to have a nasty undertone of classic slut shaming. Basically the whole "It turned the pure, beautiful love of Peter's life into a sullied whore who would sleep with the creepy dad of one of her friends!!!"-angle.

Agreed. I mean, yes, Norman is now widely recognize as a horrible person, so I could understand being upset with their relationship, but didn't it happen during a time where he wasn't as evil as we expect him to be? Considering how the original pitch was for the children to be Peter's, I could see the criticism stemming from jealousy over it being someone other than Peter, so the reasoning is closer to saying that Gwen shouldn't have been allowed to be involved with anyone except Peter.

Clone Saga fans also did get excited about every hint that Ben Reilly might return/ be referenced.

And as such, people can just as easily be excited about similar hints towards the marriage's return, which is good. The marriage and Ben Reilly show that the franchise is capable of providing a variety of characters, concepts, and relationship dynamics that can appeal to a variety of people. Besides, the Clone Saga actually is pretty much agreed to be over, while One More Day is not considered to be, with One Moment in Time "continuing" the arc, as well as the promise of a third story. By citing One More Day on the Battleworld map, we are being invited to draw connections between One More Day and Renew Your Vows. I'd say that such a choice is prioritizing One More Day over the Clone Saga in regards to which Spider-Man story readers should be more aware of going into Secret Wars, though with three more domains on Battleworld yet to be revealed, one of them could be based on the Clone Saga, and with it being classified, that might suggest that a Clone Saga domain would be considered more important, and therefore less worth the risk of spoiling, than the Regency.

[TheNewFiftyForum]

Can't read minds, so I don't know about individuals. But she transgressed against Peter, even if you want to buy into the "they were on a break" theory that is nowhere in the story or any Marvel comic. I think to an extent we sometimes get into an iffy area with sexual mores because of past repression and such. But infidelity is a valid thing to criticize. As is hiding a pregnancy (even if they had been Peter's kids) from someone you are pressuring to marry you. (In fact, it would be legal grounds for annulment if Peter were to find out after they got married.)

And in reality, had this come to light at the time and Gwen lived, it could very well have had a negative impact on her friendship with Harry too.

Plausible points, but I still feel that a lot of that type of criticism has just the unpleasant undercurrents I'm talking about. There are very different ways of "criticizing" infidelity, for example.

[Tuck]

There are very different ways of "criticizing" infidelity, for example.

Betrayal is considered one of the worst sins across cultures. Treason one of the worst crimes. It's deep in our psyches because trust is the glue that holds civilization together. We're actually in trouble as a species anytime something corrodes that. So, the reaction to betrayal can be very primal, even transferred to a fictional third party. We can expect people to behave themselves, but to expect a particular emotional reaction from them here is to require them not to be human.

It's different than simply having judgmental views about a person's life choices.

[TheNewFiftyForum]

Betrayal is considered one of the worst sins across cultures. Treason one of the worst crimes. It's deep in our psyches because trust is the glue that holds civilization together. We're actually in trouble as a species anytime something corrodes that. So, the reaction to betrayal can be very primal, even transferred to a fictional third party. We can expect people to behave themselves, but to expect a particular emotional reaction from them here is to require them not to be human.

It's different than simply having judgmental views about a person's life choices.

I think we're talking past eachother. Are you saying that there is no way that condemning infidelity can have other connotations? And, for that matter, that everyone who critisizes Sins Past on the basis of Gwen Stacy's behavior does so because she went against "the glue that holds society together"?

[Tuck]

I think we're talking past eachother. Are you saying that there is no way that condemning infidelity can have other connotations? And, for that matter, that everyone who critisizes Sins Past on the basis of Gwen Stacy's behavior does so because she went against "the glue that holds society together"?

What other connotations? Unless someone is asserting that Peter wouldn't be on the hook for cheating on Gwen, or that Harry sleeping with Aunt May isn't equally messed up . . . the slut shaming issue doesn't come into it. That's about double standards.

And "the glue that holds society together" is just an issue of demonstrating the benefits of holding betrayal as a serious sin. The reaction to betrayal is a gut thing. People don't tend to like those as justifications, so I went deeper.

[TheNewFiftyForum]

What other connotations? Unless someone is asserting that Peter wouldn't be on the hook for cheating on Gwen, or that Harry sleeping with Aunt May isn't equally messed up . . . the slut shaming issue doesn't come into it. That's about double standards.

And "the glue that holds society together" is just an issue of demonstrating the benefits of holding betrayal as a serious sin. The reaction to betrayal is a gut thing. People don't tend to like those as justifications, so I went deeper.

On the hook? Most probably. Critizised for loss of purity and shamed over his sexuality rather than his fidelity? No way. Those are the connotations I'm talking about. Once again, I don't buy that most of the people critisizing Sins Past due to Gwen Stacy's behavior in that story does so because they have traditional views on fidelity. Instead, I feel that a lot of that criticism boils down to the above mentioned loss of purity and general fear/dislike of active female sexuality, which are both cornerstones of slut shaming.

[Tuck]

I don't know that the loss-of-purity can be divorced from the infidelity in the story.

If, instead of Sins Past existing at all, it were revealed that Flash was her first, there would not have been the same reaction.

Upon writing that, I will concede there probably would be some people simply upset Peter wasn't her first/she didn't die a virgin. I just have hope it wouldn't be very many.

[Agent Z]

The first one: A lot of the criticism seems to have a nasty undertone of classic slut shaming. Basically the whole "It turned the pure, beautiful love of Peter's life into a sullied whore who would sleep with the creepy dad of one of her friends!!!"-angle.

The second one: There are lots of good reasons as to why Spider-Man wouldn't or couldn't be proficient in martial arts. He wouldn't have time to train, it would interfere with his intuition based Spider-sense fighting style, etc. Ignoring those and still make him a traditionally trained fighter takes away the opportunity of him having to think his way out of a brawl with a technically superior opponent, as well as negate any opportunities of having physically weaker but better trained villains still being able to pose a challenge.

How would Peter being a martial artist take away his ability to out think his opponents? Batman does it just fine. Martial arts is just one of many skills Peter can learn to help with crime fighting.

[Tuck]

He's completely OP with the Spider Fu.

You basically have to contrive reasons he doesn't win every fight in twelve seconds.

[Agent Z]

He's completely OP with the Spider Fu.

You basically have to contrive reasons he doesn't win every fight in twelve seconds.

How? It's not like he's always fighting simple muggers and bank robbers.

[Shockdingo]

The martial arts gives him news tools to use when he's fighting someone with super strength as great as or greater than his. It doesn't mean he's going to be able to throw hadoukens at Electro or something for an instant win hah. Plus, if Doc Ock comes back and he's sending some crazy tech at Pete while they're fighting, it doesn't become a magical win for him. Even with added skill there's just some threats he can't outfight directly. It doesn't matter how many roundhouse kicks he throws against Hydoman or Sandman, he needs alternate tactics.

[Dr. Jay]

Just read the Essenital Peter Parker the Spectacular Spider-man volume one---it is horrible. Marvel started a book featuring Spider-man but they had no plan, no creative team in place, really nothing for the first fifteen issues. Really it reads like a bunch of fill ins. They even had one issue that cribs a story from another source and just tacks on a beginning page ("I remember when...") and a new end page ("i wonder where Morbius is right now..."). Really no point at all. Surpising really how poorly planned or thought out that series was.

And then ten years later they did the same thing again with Web of Spider-man. They ended Marvel Team up for that crap. Least PPtSM eventually developed an identity featuring Peter on ESU with that supporting cast and had the early Stern stories. Web never turned into anything but eventually a place to get an installment of the Spider-cross over du jour.

Controversially though-- I still want a Masterworks reprinting of PPtSM.