Controversial Spider-Man Opinions

[Frontier]

It's all relative. Peter Parker has always been more associated-by-default with Spider-Man than Hal was associated-by-default with Green Lantern. Hal himself was a legacy character and the precedent for having more than one Green Lantern was always there, while with Spider-Man it's a relatively recent idea.

Marvel is arguably working harder at closing the gap between Peter and other Spider-Characters than DC/Johns worked to close the gap between Hal/Barry and other GL/Flash's.

I think they are working to close the gap but haven't quite figured out the way to do it yet. Last Remains kind of indicates to me that we're still have some growing to do on that front.

Have we gotten a big splash page of all the Spiders swinging free together, joyfully? I'm thinking of something equivalent to that scene in Blackest Night of all the Earth GL's flying in Coast City.

[Lukmendes]

I have this (unproven) theory that new characters (or mantles, as the case may be) have an undefined period of time in which they're still plastic enough that major changes to their characterization or development (or even have the mantle passed on to someone else) will stick, but once that period is over, the stage of development they're in is what their's ground zero self will always be. I mean, Black Widow and Rogue started out as villains, but they're always going to be depicted as heroes going forward (I mean, the Evolution and Wolverine cartoons had token references and parallels to Rogue's past as a bad guy, but were pretty clear that she was a good person who got lead to the wrong side briefly and Black Widow was introduced in the Marvel movies as a reformed woman seeking redemption). Conversely, Star Sapphire in Green Lantern started out as a villain and while having her be a hero isn't uncommon, she's pretty frequently taken back to her roots as a villain; she didn't quite reform in time for it to be her default form.

So, yeah, any of the big superstars, they lost their flexibility to rebrand and all that a long time ago.

That makes sense.

Although it's worth pointing out that Barry and Hal were lucky to be brought back, specially Barry, Wally was just iconic as a Flash even before JL cartoon, a lot of the most interesting Flash stuff were introduced in his stories, and nobody would really care about Barry coming back, specially 20 years later, but toxic nostalgia happened at the comics, and other medium follows suit, so Wally was an example of a legacy who tried and worked, but toxic nostalgia kicked him away, not a case of a legacy who was tried and failed like the rest.

Forgot about Barry being a legacy himself. Exception to the rule, I guess (or Flash had a longer plastic period).

Him and Hal are like that, since Alan was the original Green Lantern too, (Though there's no real connection between Alan and Hal story-wise, unlike Jay and Barry), but then again, worth keeping in mind both Jay and Alan are failures, since they lost popularity during the golden age, which is why they tend to be old characters from WWII, they didn't have a lot of stories after that to define them, so they didn't get the perks of comic book time like Supes, Diana and Batman did.

Another one who's actually a legacy is Barbara too, she's the second Batgirl, but nobody cares about Bette Kane.

So really, it's about becoming iconic in some way, otherwise the character's gonna be forgotten, even if they are the original.

Should probably get those Odyssey trades sometime, although I'm really wishing that Jessica would lose the Omega powers and get back to normal.

What, like Darkseid's Omega powers? That's weird if so...

Or try to pretend Wally's villains have only ever fought Barry.

At least Peter hasn't stolen any of Miles' villains yet.

Legit question since I don't know too much about Miles, outside of Aaron (Who I think stopped being evil in Ahmed's run), Lana's mother, Ultimatum and Ultimate Goblin, does Miles have any other villains?

I think he'd write Norman more like he wrote Luthor and Thawne.

Luthor and Thawne are two colossally different characters to be Norman lol.

Maybe Luthor for Norman, Thawne for Green Goblin? That could be somethin', specially if GG got the weird crush lol.

Not so much dress like him but become him and everything he represented.

Sounds like DCAU Waller would like her, since the whole point of that "Batman Beyond" project was to make Bruce 2.0

(Urgh, now I'm annoyed for reminding myself of the dumbass retcon of "Bruce is genetically Terry's father' ****...).

Dude played Norman too. That's a fact .

He also played Harry in that Friend or Foe game I think.

Someday he'll play JJ .

A clone taking over does have franchise precedent...although it would've been a big change either way in my opinion.

Would probably be less controversial with Jessica, since the whole point of Ben was pretending that he was the real Peter all along, which is really awkward to try.

I think the more common criticism is he was too much of a Sinestro fanboy.

Which kind of reminds me of Slott and Doc Ock. Is Superior as bad as Parallax?

You mean Parallax being used as an excuse to pretend Zero Hour's events weren't Hal's doing being as bad as Parallax?

'Cause yeah, that's pretty dumb, doesn't help that last I saw, Parallax was only Sinestro's Pokemon... Wouldn't say as bad as Superior though.

I think people kind of oversell the treatment of the other GL's in relation to Hal. I mean, Hal was obviously the lead character in the main GL book but they still got moments in the books when they were together and there was also the GLC book, although I get John Stewart fans were expecting he'd be more of a co-lead than he actually was.

I think Johns was more fair to the other GL's than the other Spiders are sometimes treated in ASM.

I mean, if he disrespected the other GLs as much as Marvel disrespects the other non-Miles Spider-People, the fans would get really pissed lol.

What other human GLs have over Spiders is that, for a while, they were major in a way, Hal was gone for a while, Kyle replaced him, I think John did too, but the big thing about him was JL cartoon, and Guy was around in other JL teams and getting focus around.

By comparison, what did the other Spider-People have? Let's see, Jessica had her own comic, which was kinda whatever when Claremont wasn't writing (And he mostly wasn't), Julia was, around sometimes, was even essentially the protagonist of Spectacular #125 and #126 (#125 even has her in the cover), and an Iron Man issue before that, but then was kinda forgotten about, Ben was only popular because Peter was being a piece of **** in the 90's, even then him becoming Spider-Man wasn't liked, Kaine was a piece of **** who only was liked later, but is mostly in limbo now, Mattie got her own comic which died fast, and then she died, nobody cared about Charlotte ever, Anya got her own comic but quickly became an extra, Cindy had that awkward push in ASM, then her own comic, but that didn't last either, and Gwen, she's a weirder one, general public seemed to be somewhat aware of her even before Spider-Verse's movie, but her comics don't tend to last much lol.

So Miles is the only one who managed to become popular, all the others at best only had a brief popularity that didn't last, so they logically have less fans to bitch about in case they're disrespected.

It's all relative. Peter Parker has always been more associated-by-default with Spider-Man than Hal was associated-by-default with Green Lantern. Hal himself was a legacy character and the precedent for having more than one Green Lantern was always there, while with Spider-Man it's a relatively recent idea.

Marvel is arguably working harder at closing the gap between Peter and other Spider-Characters than DC/Johns worked to close the gap between Hal/Barry and other GL/Flash's.

If Marvel is working harder at this than DC, that kinda says how much worse DC is, 'cause other Spider-People are just around, sometimes, being interchangeable and irrelevant.

I think they are working to close the gap but haven't quite figured out the way to do it yet. Last Remains kind of indicates to me that we're still have some growing to do on that front.

Last Remains didn't even bother to give them much of a voice.

Hell, one thing I realized recently is how much Julia is bad as a legacy character, competence aside, her role is basically the same as Cassandra's, with nothing that makes her stand out, and she's just one example of how much the other Spider-People are half assed.

Have we gotten a big splash page of all the Spiders swinging free together, joyfully? I'm thinking of something equivalent to that scene in Blackest Night of all the Earth GL's flying in Coast City.

Pretty sure only splash pages we got have them attacking someone...

Closest thing to what you suggested are covers, like ASM#50LR (And that might be the only one), where they're doing that, even though nothing like it happens in the comic itself (And that cover lies about what's happening in the comic itself lol).

[Frontier]

If Marvel is working harder at this than DC, that kinda says how much worse DC is, 'cause other Spider-People are just around, sometimes, being interchangeable and irrelevant.

Doesn't that just imply that DC is more natural at Family characters, even when they drop the ball with them?

[Lukmendes]

Doesn't that just imply that DC is more natural at Family characters, even when they drop the ball with them?

Lol, didn't think of it like that, but yeah, DC may not try as hard, but they do handle the "family" angle better.

Though when they drop the ball, it can be really, really bad, Green Lanterns is a rather tame example, since all that happened was Hal stealing someone else's comic in the last issue, sometimes it feels like they try to delete the family thing, and we can get **** like Heroes in Crisis, which is basically "How can we **** over Wally in the most mean spirited way possible?"

So yeah, it can feel like DC is just hardcore with this, either pretty good or really bad... But when they feel like it, they are more natural than Marvel, at least when it's about Spider-People.

[WebLurker]

Zendaya's MJ is the most interesting version of Mary Jane to ever hit the big screen (and I didn't mind Kirsten Dunst all that much, but Raimi really didn't do much with this character).

I would actually contend that the MJ in the Sam Raimi movies is one of the better written-and-developed love interest characters in the superhero movie genre (not counting stuff like Guardians of the Galaxy or Ant-Man where the couple in question are part of an ensemble cast). I mean, she was given her own running plots about trying to make a career that had no relevance to her narrative role as the leading lady and did have her side to the love story beyond just the plot mechanics for the main character's perspective. As a comparison, take Pepper Potts in the Iron Man movies; well-acted and all that, but I never really felt like we got her perspective very much on things and she was pretty reactionary to the plot as we saw things from Iron Man's perspective, if that makes any sense. (Mileage may vary.)

That makes sense.

Thanks.

Although it's worth pointing out that Barry and Hal were lucky to be brought back, specially Barry, Wally was just iconic as a Flash even before JL cartoon, a lot of the most interesting Flash stuff were introduced in his stories, and nobody would really care about Barry coming back, specially 20 years later, but toxic nostalgia happened at the comics, and other medium follows suit, so Wally was an example of a legacy who tried and worked, but toxic nostalgia kicked him away, not a case of a legacy who was tried and failed like the rest.

There are always exceptions to trends with art, e.g. Wally almost successfully replacing Barry for all time. I did think though that most adaptations of the Flash were a composite of Barry and Wally anyways (just the name and choice of supporting cast varying), so maybe it wasn't a completely successful replacement of Wally, from a certain point of view. (As a Spider-Man analogy, Spider-Man and Mary Jane were married in mainstream comics for over 20 years. That came to an end, but the idea of the two being the primary couple of the franchise has never really gone away, so, even if they're not married in 616, the idea of them being a couple, whatever that looks like, has stuck around in the main comics, spinoffs, and adapations, etc.)

Him and Hal are like that, since Alan was the original Green Lantern too, (Though there's no real connection between Alan and Hal story-wise, unlike Jay and Barry), but then again, worth keeping in mind both Jay and Alan are failures, since they lost popularity during the golden age, which is why they tend to be old characters from WWII, they didn't have a lot of stories after that to define them, so they didn't get the perks of comic book time like Supes, Diana and Batman did.

Another one who's actually a legacy is Barbara too, she's the second Batgirl, but nobody cares about Bette Kane.

So really, it's about becoming iconic in some way, otherwise the character's gonna be forgotten, even if they are the original.

Sure. Using the "plastic" model, I would label those as the changes happening while things hadn't been set in stone. On the other hand, if the originals never caught on, but the revamps did, that might speak more to a refined version of the idea working then the prototype, if that makes any sense. I would certainly agree that there are multiple ways for something to become iconic enough to hit superstar status and find that evergreen configuration where they've lost their plasticity. Mr. Freeze started out as joke villain called "Mr. Zero" until the '60s Batman show gave him his permanent name, and he was forgotten until the '90s cartoon reimagined him from the ground up and not only made him popular but created the default backstory and motivations. Harley Quinn was originally the Joker's girlfriend and usually working with him, while we're seeing a lot more stuff with her having broken up with him and either trying to become her own villain or looking for some kind of redemption. Maybe post-Joker Harley will become the character's default?

What, like Darkseid's Omega powers? That's weird if so...

That's how I understand it. It's probably not going to last, but still.

Legit question since I don't know too much about Miles, outside of Aaron (Who I think stopped being evil in Ahmed's run), Lana's mother, Ultimatum and Ultimate Goblin, does Miles have any other villains?

Haven't kept up with things, but all Miles' villains were borrowed from Peter, one way or another. Even Prowler was originally a Spider-Man character.

[Lukmendes]

There are always exceptions to trends with art, e.g. Wally almost successfully replacing Barry for all time. I did think though that most adaptations of the Flash were a composite of Barry and Wally anyways (just the name and choice of supporting cast varying), so maybe it wasn't a completely successful replacement of Wally, from a certain point of view. (As a Spider-Man analogy, Spider-Man and Mary Jane were married in mainstream comics for over 20 years. That came to an end, but the idea of the two being the primary couple of the franchise has never really gone away, so, even if they're not married in 616, the idea of them being a couple, whatever that looks like, has stuck around in the main comics, spinoffs, and adapations, etc.)

Yeah there was a mix of both, in the JL cartoon, Wally had the Rogues as his villains in an episode that shows a bit of his life, plus the same episode used the ring to get his costumes, when by that point in the comic he already used the Speedforce (Then again, he didn't have the Speedforce in the cartoon yet, so the ring at least makes sense).

He was still mostly Wally though, 'cause can't think of much from Barry outside of using his villains.

Can see the logic of combining versions of the characters though, no reason to waste good ****.

Sure. Using the "plastic" model, I would label those as the changes happening while things hadn't been set in stone. On the other hand, if the originals never caught on, but the revamps did, that might speak more to a refined version of the idea working then the prototype, if that makes any sense. I would certainly agree that there are multiple ways for something to become iconic enough to hit superstar status and find that evergreen configuration where they've lost their plasticity. Mr. Freeze started out as joke villain called "Mr. Zero" until the '60s Batman show gave him his permanent name, and he was forgotten until the '90s cartoon reimagined him from the ground up and not only made him popular but created the default backstory and motivations. Harley Quinn was originally the Joker's girlfriend and usually working with him, while we're seeing a lot more stuff with her having broken up with him and either trying to become her own villain or looking for some kind of redemption. Maybe post-Joker Harley will become the character's default?

Right now, the way Harley is, is the default, since she's like that everywhere she shows up now, time will tell if she'll remain like that or go back to being his girlfriend though, or maybe something else.

It seems that whatever reaches enough public knowledge is what remains, like the Mister Freeze example, even then there are exceptions, 'cause despite John becoming so popular as a Green Lantern thanks to JL cartoon (We even had people bitching about the movie, thinking that Green Lantern was white washed), Hal is still the one used in other adaptations, and while comics John had rather blatantly retcons because of JL cartoon (Pretty sure he wasn't that much of an army boy in the comics, or at all), he's still not that big, much less as big as Hal.

So Marvel and DC have a certain amount of control over this, and DC chooses to use it more to to make sure Hal and Barry stay around, relevant in a way...

Haven't kept up with things, but all Miles' villains were borrowed from Peter, one way or another. Even Prowler was originally a Spider-Man character.

Peter fought the Bombshells before Miles too, I think he only did it once though, pretty sure Miles dealt with them more times.

Wonder if there's some abandoned villain out there who would make a lot of thematical sense of Miles to deal with, like his own Otto or Green Goblin, but obviously not a rip off of either...

[Frontier]

Yeah there was a mix of both, in the JL cartoon, Wally had the Rogues as his villains in an episode that shows a bit of his life, plus the same episode used the ring to get his costumes, when by that point in the comic he already used the Speedforce (Then again, he didn't have the Speedforce in the cartoon yet, so the ring at least makes sense).

He was still mostly Wally though, 'cause can't think of much from Barry outside of using his villains.

Can see the logic of combining versions of the characters though, no reason to waste good ****.

He had Barry's day job too (forensic scientist).

Peter fought the Bombshells before Miles too, I think he only did it once though, pretty sure Miles dealt with them more times.

Wonder if there's some abandoned villain out there who would make a lot of thematical sense of Miles to deal with, like his own Otto or Green Goblin, but obviously not a rip off of either...

I think it was Peter first, Johnny and Spider-Woman the second time, and then Lana became a good guy and Miles didn't deal with her mom until Bendis' last arc.

He may as well get Lady Ock because of Into the Spider-Verse (does Carolyn count as a rip off?). I guess we haven't gotten to the point where all the main Spiders get their own individual Goblins.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I think they are working to close the gap but haven't quite figured out the way to do it yet. Last Remains kind of indicates to me that we're still have some growing to do on that front.

Have we gotten a big splash page of all the Spiders swinging free together, joyfully? I'm thinking of something equivalent to that scene in Blackest Night of all the Earth GL's flying in Coast City.

The IDW comics have done a couple of covers of Peter, Miles, and Gwen together.

Entirely closing the gap is very, very hard. It's not something that can happen overnight. Peter Parker is just as synonymous with Spider-Man as Bruce Wayne is with Batman and Clark Kent is with Superman.

So Miles is the only one who managed to become popular, all the others at best only had a brief popularity that didn't last, so they logically have less fans to bitch about in case they're disrespected.

I think Miles, Gwen, and Miguel have all become somewhat popular. Those are the only ones I currently see potentially not feeling redundant to Peter.

If Marvel is working harder at this than DC, that kinda says how much worse DC is, 'cause other Spider-People are just around, sometimes, being interchangeable and irrelevant.

Yes and no. I said Marvel, but a lot of it had to do with Sony. ITSV and the Insomniac game arguably did more for those other spider-characters than the comics did.

Still, even if we go by just comics, Marvel does have DC beat at this. They gave at least Miles, Gwen, and Miguel their own titles. DC didn't do that with the their Flash's/GL's until recently.

Marvel has also taken more advantage of the bump that ITSV and Insomniac gave the Spider-Characters. DC brought back Barry Allen and Hal Jordan while Wally West and John Stewart were at their peak and just started being used in other mediums.

[Frontier]

The IDW comics have done a couple of covers of Peter, Miles, and Gwen together.

Entirely closing the gap is very, very hard. It's not something that can happen overnight. Peter Parker is just as synonymous with Spider-Man as Bruce Wayne is with Batman and Clark Kent is with Superman.

Miles and Gwen tend to make out better than the other Spider-Characters do...

Yes and no. I said Marvel, but a lot of it had to do with Sony. ITSV and the Insomniac game arguably did more for those other spider-characters than the comics did.

Still, even if we go by just comics, Marvel does have DC beat at this. They gave at least Miles, Gwen, and Miguel their own titles. DC didn't do that with the their Flash's/GL's until recently.

Marvel has also taken more advantage of the bump that ITSV and Insomniac gave the Spider-Characters. DC brought back Barry Allen and Hal Jordan while Wally West and John Stewart were at their peak and just started being used in other mediums.

Where was my Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne bump circa-Earth's Mightiest Heroes ?

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Where was my Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne bump circa-Earth's Mightiest Heroes ?

That had more to do with the Edgar Wright situation at Marvel. That and by the time the Ant-Man film was made, EMH was gone.

DC is at least generally faster at importing good ideas from other mediums. Superman got his flight shortly after Fleicher. Batman got his cave shortly after the 40s serials. BTAS' Freeze and Riddler were imported into comics shortly after the success of BTAS, as was Harley Quinn.

Meanwhile Marvel is still relying on stuff from Bendis' run to make 616 Miles interesting, and 616 Shuri is still a female clone of T'Challa instead of being revamped into the more interesting MCU version.

[Frontier]

Meanwhile Marvel is still relying on stuff from Bendis' run to make 616 Miles interesting, and 616 Shuri is still a female clone of T'Challa instead of being revamped into the more interesting MCU version.

They've been trying to synergize comic Shuri with MCU Shuri. It's just been kind of abrupt that she's suddenly acting a like a science-obsessed teenager .

[Revolutionary_Jack]

That had more to do with the Edgar Wright situation at Marvel. That and by the time the Ant-Man film was made, EMH was gone.

Edgar Wright was never gonna use Hank Pym anyway as the main Ant-Man. His version always had Scott Lang as Ant-Man, and there was never a role for Wasp in his version of the movie.

As for the issue of Spider-Man and all the legacies and so on. It's more complex with Spider-Man than with Green Lanter, Flash, and also Batman.

It's certainly true that Peter Parker is always gonna be the most popular Spider-Man and the definitive Spider-Man, the way Bruce Wayne is the most popular Batman and the definitive Batman. At the same time, Miles Morales Spider-Man has had a historical claim and innovation that also means that he's here to stay and last as Peter's true legacy and heir. (the others -- Spider-Gwen, Spider-Girl/Mayday, Miguel-- in my view they are less defining as Miles is). Miles' success is greater than Azrael, greater than Dick Grayson/Batman (to name two of Bruce's legacies), greater than the "Reign of Supermen" parade after his Death.

Comparisons with The Flash and Green Lantern are misplaced. Neither The Flash or Green Lantern are major superheroes to the extent that Spider-Man is. No GL movie has had great success nor any GL cartoon series (yes I know there was one) attained great fame. The only big success they've had is Justice League Unlimited (in the case of GL), and the two live-action Flash shows (the one in the '90s with Mark Hamill as the Trickster and the one on CW). Outside of the comics market (small and shrinking and so on), no Flash and no GL has truly crossed over and made it big as "the" GL.

Miles Morales as Spider-Man for instance has had more crossover success and name recognition than any GL or Flash these days. That's Miles, leave alone Peter Parker aka Spider-Man, aka the biggest superhero by far in terms of merchandise.

[PCN24454]

Edgar Wright was never gonna use Hank Pym anyway as the main Ant-Man. His version always had Scott Lang as Ant-Man, and there was never a role for Wasp in his version of the movie.

As for the issue of Spider-Man and all the legacies and so on. It's more complex with Spider-Man than with Green Lanter, Flash, and also Batman.

It's certainly true that Peter Parker is always gonna be the most popular Spider-Man and the definitive Spider-Man, the way Bruce Wayne is the most popular Batman and the definitive Batman. At the same time, Miles Morales Spider-Man has had a historical claim and innovation that also means that he's here to stay and last as Peter's true legacy and heir. (the others -- Spider-Gwen, Spider-Girl/Mayday, Miguel-- in my view they are less defining as Miles is). Miles' success is greater than Azrael, greater than Dick Grayson/Batman (to name two of Bruce's legacies), greater than the "Reign of Supermen" parade after his Death.

Comparisons with The Flash and Green Lantern are misplaced. Neither The Flash or Green Lantern are major superheroes to the extent that Spider-Man is. No GL movie has had great success nor any GL cartoon series (yes I know there was one) attained great fame. The only big success they've had is Justice League Unlimited (in the case of GL), and the two live-action Flash shows (the one in the '90s with Mark Hamill as the Trickster and the one on CW). Outside of the comics market (small and shrinking and so on), no Flash and no GL has truly crossed over and made it big as "the" GL.

Miles Morales as Spider-Man for instance has had more crossover success and name recognition than any GL or Flash these days. That's Miles, leave alone Peter Parker aka Spider-Man, aka the biggest superhero by far in terms of merchandise.

They'll never use Mayday because Mayday takes place in the future, and Marvel is terrified of that.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

They've been trying to synergize comic Shuri with MCU Shuri. It's just been kind of abrupt that she's suddenly acting a like a science-obsessed teenager .

Ah, didn't know that. Last I checked she was still relatively the same.

Edgar Wright was never gonna use Hank Pym anyway as the main Ant-Man. His version always had Scott Lang as Ant-Man, and there was never a role for Wasp in his version of the movie.

As for the issue of Spider-Man and all the legacies and so on. It's more complex with Spider-Man than with Green Lanter, Flash, and also Batman.

It's certainly true that Peter Parker is always gonna be the most popular Spider-Man and the definitive Spider-Man, the way Bruce Wayne is the most popular Batman and the definitive Batman. At the same time, Miles Morales Spider-Man has had a historical claim and innovation that also means that he's here to stay and last as Peter's true legacy and heir. (the others -- Spider-Gwen, Spider-Girl/Mayday, Miguel-- in my view they are less defining as Miles is). Miles' success is greater than Azrael, greater than Dick Grayson/Batman (to name two of Bruce's legacies), greater than the "Reign of Supermen" parade after his Death.

Comparisons with The Flash and Green Lantern are misplaced. Neither The Flash or Green Lantern are major superheroes to the extent that Spider-Man is. No GL movie has had great success nor any GL cartoon series (yes I know there was one) attained great fame. The only big success they've had is Justice League Unlimited (in the case of GL), and the two live-action Flash shows (the one in the '90s with Mark Hamill as the Trickster and the one on CW). Outside of the comics market (small and shrinking and so on), no Flash and no GL has truly crossed over and made it big as "the" GL.

Miles Morales as Spider-Man for instance has had more crossover success and name recognition than any GL or Flash these days. That's Miles, leave alone Peter Parker aka Spider-Man, aka the biggest superhero by far in terms of merchandise.

I don't think legacy comparisons to Flash and GL are entirely misplaced. That would be true if we are comparing him to Ted Kord, but Flash and GL are still relatively iconic and relatively A-list superheroes.

[PCN24454]

I've always been mad that there was apparently a glass ceiling when it came to villains. Most of the villains really notable stories and character traits came from after their initial runs, so it's hard to say that they're better than later villains.

I also hate when said "iconic" villains are treated with more reverence than later ones. That's just annoying on its own.