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  1. #946
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    That would be true if we are comparing him to Ted Kord, but Flash and GL are still relatively iconic and relatively A-list superheroes.
    Thor Are they though meme.jpg

    Sure Flash and Green Lantern are A-List DC Superheroes? In DC, Green Lantern and The Flash are A-List. But from a comics-wide perspective, neither Flash or Green Lantern are fit to shine Spider-Man's shoes as a brand, leave alone a title.

    From a comics perspective, The Flash has had two big periods...once during the '50s under Carmine Infantino, and then under Mark Waid. For GL, it was under (sigh) Geoff Johns. But outside of that, these were never among DC's most prestigious and prominent titles. Green Lantern especially sunk so low in esteem that he wasn't included in the line-up to the Justice League movie...freaking Aquaman was, as well as upjumped Teen Titan Cyborg but not GL.

  2. #947
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Don't be pedantic. While they may not be as popular as Superman and Batman, they're still A-Listers.

  3. #948
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Thor Are they though meme.jpg

    Sure Flash and Green Lantern are A-List DC Superheroes? In DC, Green Lantern and The Flash are A-List. But from a comics-wide perspective, neither Flash or Green Lantern are fit to shine Spider-Man's shoes as a brand, leave alone a title.

    From a comics perspective, The Flash has had two big periods...once during the '50s under Carmine Infantino, and then under Mark Waid. For GL, it was under (sigh) Geoff Johns. But outside of that, these were never among DC's most prestigious and prominent titles. Green Lantern especially sunk so low in esteem that he wasn't included in the line-up to the Justice League movie...freaking Aquaman was, as well as upjumped Teen Titan Cyborg but not GL.
    Johns' Flash run is also well-regarded, and the Joshua Williamson Flash run has sold very well.

    If we're talking GL, it would probably be the Silver Age, the Kyle Rayner era, and the Johns run.

  4. #949
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    He had Barry's day job too (forensic scientist).
    Oh yeah, forgot about that.

    I should use this as a half assed excuse to binge watch JL cartoon .

    I think it was Peter first, Johnny and Spider-Woman the second time, and then Lana became a good guy and Miles didn't deal with her mom until Bendis' last arc.
    Hm, thinking of it, wasn't Lana transfered to Peter's school when he was still alive, trying to have a normal life? 'Cause if so, she started to try to be good pretty early, though it sounds like she briefly relapsed if so.

    He may as well get Lady Ock because of Into the Spider-Verse (does Carolyn count as a rip off?).
    Carolyn has the same arms, and is also a scienstist, she uses the two most basic things about Otto, so yeah, rip off lol.

    Wonder what could be done with her to make it work as a legit Miles villain, 'cause it'd really look like it's a case of "Peter has an Octopus to deal with, now Miles has one too".

    I guess we haven't gotten to the point where all the main Spiders get their own individual Goblins.
    I mean, Ultimate Norman is pretty much a Miles villain, the "main" Spiders definetely have one for the most part, think only Gwen lacks one now (If we count her as a "main", in popularity she is at least).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Entirely closing the gap is very, very hard. It's not something that can happen overnight. Peter Parker is just as synonymous with Spider-Man as Bruce Wayne is with Batman and Clark Kent is with Superman.
    Doesn't help that Marvel has practically no experience with this, even less to even care about trying, Peter is still the big one with Miles right behind, and Gwen at least being known to general public, the rest are at the bottom of B-list at best.

    I think Miles, Gwen, and Miguel have all become somewhat popular. Those are the only ones I currently see potentially not feeling redundant to Peter.
    Fucking damn it, I know I forgot to list someone there... I remembered Charlotte but forgot Miguel, how shameful lol.

    I doubt how popular Miguel is now, Shattered Dimensions and Edge of Time helped to make people aware of him, as well as Spider-Verse movie's post credit scene, but not sure how popular that makes him, though yeah, he's definitely the least redundant one, if only because he's basically Batman Beyond before Batman Beyond, a replacement from the far future who's pretty different.

    Yes and no. I said Marvel, but a lot of it had to do with Sony. ITSV and the Insomniac game arguably did more for those other spider-characters than the comics did.
    I'd say Miles is the only real benefactor from this, protagonist of the movie, big supporting character in one game, protagonist in the sequel... The other Spiders in Spider-Verse are just there, and the most major one who isn't Miles is another Peter, though the movie did bother to make them look and act different, and make the public be more aware of other Spider-People, but the last one is more of a benefit of being a more popular medium.

    Still, even if we go by just comics, Marvel does have DC beat at this. They gave at least Miles, Gwen, and Miguel their own titles. DC didn't do that with the their Flash's/GL's until recently.
    Good point, of all heroic Spider-People (Which excludes the likes of Charlotte and Black Tarantula), I think Julia got the least, was supposed to have a mini about her time as a forced secret agent (And her briefly taking over Iron Man and Spectacular Spidey were rather blatant pooly disguised pilots), but that was cancelled, but she got another mini with 4 issues, by comparison, Miles always has his own comic, Jessica and Gwen are given more chances than anyone, Mattie had her own comic with like 15 issues (Although she was the only Spider-Woman at the time), Anya had two of her own comics (Both when another Spider-Woman was around, though none with their own comic when she was Araña), and Silk had her own on-going, Miguel too in the 90's then post Superior, plus Mayday staying around for a long ass time, so yeah, even though Marvel does a crap job in making them work as a team, they did try to make them work better separately, even when multiple of them are active and with their own comics.

    Marvel has also taken more advantage of the bump that ITSV and Insomniac gave the Spider-Characters. DC brought back Barry Allen and Hal Jordan while Wally West and John Stewart were at their peak and just started being used in other mediums.
    I'm still butthurt at them for that, and that's before Heroes in Crisis came along to **** Wally without lube.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    That had more to do with the Edgar Wright situation at Marvel. That and by the time the Ant-Man film was made, EMH was gone.

    DC is at least generally faster at importing good ideas from other mediums. Superman got his flight shortly after Fleicher. Batman got his cave shortly after the 40s serials. BTAS' Freeze and Riddler were imported into comics shortly after the success of BTAS, as was Harley Quinn.

    Meanwhile Marvel is still relying on stuff from Bendis' run to make 616 Miles interesting, and 616 Shuri is still a female clone of T'Challa instead of being revamped into the more interesting MCU version.
    Honestly, some synergies should be done very carefully 'cause they can make some really dumb **** by making a character change completely all of a sudden, or be basically pointless, like Black Fury, we get that dumbass Original Sin which was partially to kick out White Fury, then Black Fury doesn't even show up enough for the replacement to have been worth a damn.

  5. #950
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Two things. First, if Spider-Man is the standard for who is/isn't A-list, there are literally less than a handful of heroes who are A-list. Literally the only ones who match Spider-Man in iconography and marketability are DC's Big Three (if even Wonder Woman - the Big Three overall are arguably Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man). Second, it's true that a lot of Marvel characters have caught up or surpassed DC's main characters, but this is still a relatively recent trend in superhero history (literally just 10 years ago, the Justice League was more valuable and recognizable as an IP than the Avengers).

    It's harder to figure out where most characters ranks now in a post-Avengers world, but just 10 years ago? Absolutely Flash and GL would have been A-list and in the overall top 10. The only Marvel characters more recognizable and marketable besides Spider-Man were maybe Wolverine, Hulk, or Captain America. Other than that, GL and Flash would have been the next names your average person on the street lists if you ask them to name superheroes.

    That is if we are talking iconography. As far as marketability goes, the fact Flash and GL have had bad projects or been MIA has more to do with WB/DC's Piss-poor marketability of their characters (something with affects even Superman). Marvel and Disney have always been the Apple to DC and WB's Microsoft, in the sense they are more in-touch with their consumers and know what to give them than the latter. That is why an unknown property like Guardians can thrive while DC properties with a lot more going for them go MIA.

    Even then, Flash and GL had some decent exposure. The Justice League cartoon was very popular and remembered by almost all Millenials who grew up watching superheroes. Flash has had a pretty successful CW show recently, which I know a lot of people that stream on Netflix. GL yes has struggled more in very recent years but that goes back to my point about WB%DC being Piss-poor at marketing them. This was the same studio that killed even Batman on film in the late 90's and that can't make Superman relevant in a world that mirrors the Great Depression.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 11-02-2020 at 01:55 PM.

  6. #951
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Two things. First, if Spider-Man is the standard for who is/isn't A-list, there are literally less than a handful of heroes who are A-list. Literally the only ones who match Spider-Man in iconography and marketability are DC's Big Three (if even Wonder Woman - the Big Three overall are arguably Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man).
    Well that was kind of the point. I just don't think either The Flash or Green Lantern are all that prestigious to discuss in relation to Spider-Man in terms of issues of legacy and so on. Peter Parker being Spider-Man and hard to replace and hard for him to have a legacy is not at all comparable to characters who have never entirely claimed their mantle for a long time.

    With The Flash, the fact is Wally West successfully displaced Barry as the Flash for an entire generation since Post-Crisis. The entire Flash mythos, like the Speed Force and so on was developed around Wally, not Barry. Whenever Barry gets adaptated he borrows aspects from Wally (in that respect it's sorta similar with high school Peter in the MCU borrowing from Miles). So on that level, I concede your point.

    Even then, Flash and GL had some decent exposure. The Justice League cartoon was very popular and remembered by almost all Millenials who grew up watching superheroes.
    Represent. I love the JLU, and Wally West and Jon Stewart are the Flash and GL for me too. It's just that those versions were never embraced and imported to the comics in a big way. Which is a shame.

    At the end of the day though, The Flash has had great success with Barry Allen, and then again with Wally West to the extent that Wally West replaced Barry as the Flash, in the same way that in the comics Kyle Rayner replaced Jordan as the Green Lantern, and Jon Stewart became the Green Lantern in the cartoons...if not for the thumbs pressed on the scales by DC editors, Hal Jordan would probably not have the astroturfed position he came to enjoy since Geoff Johns. Same probably holds true for Barry.

    Whereas Peter Parker is legitimately popular and beloved as Spider-Man with or without thumbs pressed on scales for or against him.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 11-02-2020 at 04:36 PM.

  7. #952
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Johns' Flash run is also well-regarded, and the Joshua Williamson Flash run has sold very well.

    If we're talking GL, it would probably be the Silver Age, the Kyle Rayner era, and the Johns run.
    Flash is probably an A-lister. There is the historical significance of Barry Allen as kicking off the Silver Age. And the show is a hit.

    I'm not so sure about Green Lantern. The Geoff Johns run was fantastic, but that was years ago. His media appearances have been limited.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  8. #953
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Well that was kind of the point. I just don't think either The Flash or Green Lantern are all that prestigious to discuss in relation to Spider-Man in terms of issues of legacy and so on. Peter Parker being Spider-Man and hard to replace and hard for him to have a legacy is not at all comparable to characters who have never entirely claimed their mantle for a long time.

    With The Flash, the fact is Wally West successfully displaced Barry as the Flash for an entire generation since Post-Crisis. The entire Flash mythos, like the Speed Force and so on was developed around Wally, not Barry. Whenever Barry gets adaptated he borrows aspects from Wally (in that respect it's sorta similar with high school Peter in the MCU borrowing from Miles). So on that level, I concede your point.



    Represent. I love the JLU, and Wally West and Jon Stewart are the Flash and GL for me too. It's just that those versions were never embraced and imported to the comics in a big way. Which is a shame.

    At the end of the day though, The Flash has had great success with Barry Allen, and then again with Wally West to the extent that Wally West replaced Barry as the Flash, in the same way that in the comics Kyle Rayner replaced Jordan as the Green Lantern, and Jon Stewart became the Green Lantern in the cartoons...if not for the thumbs pressed on the scales by DC editors, Hal Jordan would probably not have the astroturfed position he came to enjoy since Geoff Johns. Same probably holds true for Barry.

    Whereas Peter Parker is legitimately popular and beloved as Spider-Man with or without thumbs pressed on scales for or against him.
    My point was that the Silver Age Flash and Green Lantern are the closest A-list examples we have to Peter Parker. You are right that Peter is still more associated with the name "Spider-Man" than Barry Allen and Hal Jordan are with their superhero names, but that is why I specified that someone like Miles not "catching up" to Peter in just 10 years should by no means be interpreted as a failure Miles' part as a character, or as Marvel giving less attention to legacy characters than DC.

  9. #954
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    My point was that the Silver Age Flash and Green Lantern are the closest A-list examples we have to Peter Parker. You are right that Peter is still more associated with the name "Spider-Man" than Barry Allen and Hal Jordan are with their superhero names, but that is why I specified that someone like Miles not "catching up" to Peter in just 10 years should by no means be interpreted as a failure Miles' part as a character, or as Marvel giving less attention to legacy characters than DC.
    I agree. The thing is that Miles has found success despite Peter Parker being in print alongside him. When he became Ultimate Spider-Man, 616 Peter was on the stands. Then in 2012, on Spider-Man's 50th Year Anniversary, you had crossover between him and Peter in Bendis' Spider-Men. So that's still fairly unique in a lot of ways.

    When Wally West became big, Barry Allen wasn't on the stands, same with Kyle Rayner. Jon Stewart is similar in that in the comics when he arrived, Hal Jordan was the Green Lantern and Jon remained a minor figure until the animated series (where he became the main prime Green Lantern and a much larger character than he ever was in the comics).

  10. #955
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    Is it a controversial opinion to say that I'm kinda burned out on the way the comic is written now and for the past few years? There's no downtime from all the Spider-Man stuff. When I first started reading Spider-Man, I cared about his supporting cast also but who's left? At least during Brand New Day they tried to rebuild the cast, that's the reason they brought Harry back. Now Harry's a bad guy again and Flash is dead, there was an issue during BND where Betty was written as almost a sister to Peter but you wouldn't know it now. Comics used to be written as having an A plot, then a B plot in the background, C plot, etc now it's just one supervillain plot to the next. Peter used to have time to visit his aunt or the Bugle, go to the movies or SNL, Coney Island or Rockefeller Center. I used to know what Peter's various apartments looked like. Y'know things that fleshed out the character and his world

  11. #956
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hbomb450 View Post
    Is it a controversial opinion to say that I'm kinda burned out on the way the comic is written now and for the past few years? There's no downtime from all the Spider-Man stuff. When I first started reading Spider-Man, I cared about his supporting cast also but who's left? At least during Brand New Day they tried to rebuild the cast, that's the reason they brought Harry back. Now Harry's a bad guy again and Flash is dead, there was an issue during BND where Betty was written as almost a sister to Peter but you wouldn't know it now. Comics used to be written as having an A plot, then a B plot in the background, C plot, etc now it's just one supervillain plot to the next. Peter used to have time to visit his aunt or the Bugle, go to the movies or SNL, Coney Island or Rockefeller Center. I used to know what Peter's various apartments looked like. Y'know things that fleshed out the character and his world
    Yeah, the supporting cast has been whatever under Spencer, Randy hasn't done much, he's just dating Beetle and even that hasn't been developed, plus it came outta nowhere, MJ is out of New York, aunt May hasn't been showing up, Boomerang only shows up in costume so we don't see much of his social life, and I think the last time we saw Peter in college was soon after the 2099 arc... And the only character with any significance from the college is Jaime, and only because of Clairvoyant.

    It's a problem with super-heroes nowadays, the super-hero side gets more emphasis, making the supporting cast show up less, it's still not as bad as the rest, who had the supporting cast be pretty much deleted, but still sad that this is happening with Spidey.

  12. #957
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Yeah, the supporting cast has been whatever under Spencer, Randy hasn't done much, he's just dating Beetle and even that hasn't been developed, plus it came outta nowhere, MJ is out of New York, aunt May hasn't been showing up, Boomerang only shows up in costume so we don't see much of his social life, and I think the last time we saw Peter in college was soon after the 2099 arc... And the only character with any significance from the college is Jaime, and only because of Clairvoyant.

    It's a problem with super-heroes nowadays, the super-hero side gets more emphasis, making the supporting cast show up less, it's still not as bad as the rest, who had the supporting cast be pretty much deleted, but still sad that this is happening with Spidey.
    This is the same problem with the cartoons.

    As Ultimate Spider-Man went on we barely ever saw Peter as Peter and not Spider-Man. We would be lucky to see him unmasked, let alone out of the costume. One time he actually hung out with Miles in his house in costume, unmasked, as if nobody could see through the window. And all his normal friends end up getting powers and costumes.

    Marvel's Spider-Man Peter gets more out-of-costume moments but he still feels like a Superhero 80% of the time because all his core friends end up becoming Superheroes and he doesn't really do stuff outside the Superhero stuff. The Horizon work usually feeds into his Spider-Man work. He even once told Ironheart that most of his friends were Superheroes. And this is Peter Parker we're talking about. All the relatively normal characters only make one appearance at most and are never really treated as major characters. I never realized how much the show needed a normal, grounded, character until MJ showed up and called out how insane and weird all the stuff going on in the show is.

  13. #958
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    Speaking of comparing Peter Parker to Barry Allen and Hal Jordan, I think this comparison adds credibility to a theory I had for a while that Ezekiel was the Golden Age Spider-Man. I know someone might read this and go "Wait, how can he be the Golden Age Spider-Man if there was no Golden Age Spider-Man?"

    And that's exactly my point. There could have been a Golden Age Spider-Man to co-exist alongside Jay Garrick and Alan Scott, but someone wasn't proactive enough to make it happen. It is true in the real world just as much as it is true of Ezekiel as a character.

    I say this because if someone created a Spider-Man in the 1930s/40s, his origin would have probably been magic-based and similar to Ezekiel's.

    Quote Originally Posted by hbomb450 View Post
    Is it a controversial opinion to say that I'm kinda burned out on the way the comic is written now and for the past few years? There's no downtime from all the Spider-Man stuff. When I first started reading Spider-Man, I cared about his supporting cast also but who's left? At least during Brand New Day they tried to rebuild the cast, that's the reason they brought Harry back. Now Harry's a bad guy again and Flash is dead, there was an issue during BND where Betty was written as almost a sister to Peter but you wouldn't know it now. Comics used to be written as having an A plot, then a B plot in the background, C plot, etc now it's just one supervillain plot to the next. Peter used to have time to visit his aunt or the Bugle, go to the movies or SNL, Coney Island or Rockefeller Center. I used to know what Peter's various apartments looked like. Y'know things that fleshed out the character and his world
    It's because Post-BND Spider-Man has disproportionately relied on events than on character stories. It kinda has to, otherwise it risks drawing attention to OMD.

    And while I enjoy Spencer's run, the loose plotting and the hyperfocus on the supporting characters makes it bland sometimes.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 11-07-2020 at 01:44 PM.

  14. #959
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I doubt any of it was intentional, but it's kind of funny to me how much Insomniac Spidey is like the Barry Allen Flash:

    - Emphasis on being a science Superhero.

    - Reporter love interest.

    - Young protege who was introduced as a big fan of your alter ego (bonus points for having elements of Arrowverse Wally what with being black and having a cop dad).

    - Rogues Gallery that unionizes.

  15. #960
    Extraordinary Member Jman27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I doubt any of it was intentional, but it's kind of funny to me how much Insomniac Spidey is like the Barry Allen Flash:

    - Emphasis on being a science Superhero.

    - Reporter love interest.

    - Young protege who was introduced as a big fan of your alter ego (bonus points for having elements of Arrowverse Wally what with being black and having a cop dad).

    - Rogues Gallery that unionizes.
    this is why I dislike this MJ cause this was during the time in the Flash Tv show they were really pushing Iris a ton and whenever Insomniac Mj speaks I am reminded of how Iris feels slighted in the Flash and tries to get more involved in the hero stuff.
    "He's pure power and doesn't even know it. He's the best of us."-Matt Murdock

    "I need a reason to take the mask off."-Peter Parker

    "My heart half-breaks at how easy it is to lie to him. It breaks all the way when he believes me without question." Felicia Hardy

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