Controversial Spider-Man Opinions

[Tendrin]

She should be a red-head but modern hollywood and tv shows hate redheads for an unknown reason.Not only do they not get the hair color, they are the ones who are always race changed as well.
Is there a reason for this?

Yiiiiikes. Speaking as a ginger, we're not an endangered species in media, I assure you.

[Spiderfan001]

You clearly want a different discussion than the one I am interested in. I only want to focus on MJ and her place in the Spider-Man franchise. (I don't see this discussion around Paul Rudd's Scott Lang clearly not being a redhead.)

John Romita Sr. designed Mary Jane after Ann-Margret from the film Bye Bye Birdie because Mary Jane was supposed to be very attractive and Ann-Margret was considered very beautiful. But societal standards of beauty have changed, and if Spider-Man were being created today, and Peter's supporting cast were being created today, Mary Jane would look different. She'd probably look more like Zendaya.

But people aren't acknowledging that MJ was not originally supposed to be the love interest. She was originally conceived as a comic relief character. Stan had intended Gwen to be the love interest, and Gwen was based off of Stan's wife Joan, just as the Fantastic Four's Sue Storm was based on Joan (per word of Gerry Conway).

I don't have a problem with her looking like Zendaya.She can rock red hair very well.
Although I do want Shaileen Woodley(TASM 2 MJ) to get a chance, she was robbed and is probably the most comic accurate

[Spiderfan001]

Yiiiiikes. Speaking as a ginger, we're not an endangered species in media, I assure you.

I did say MODERN, didn't I?
MJ, Iris, Jimmy in both the shows and cartoons, Starfire, Hawkgirl , Wally West are all red-heads who either got different hair or race changed or both.
I'm not saying it's a problem, I just wanna know why red-heads.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I've been pilloried before for suggesting that Zenday's MJ is closer to who MJ would be if, all things being equal, she were being made today from scratch.

In terms of a more contemporary version of MJ as '60s liberated woman, yeah. Zendaya's MJ is a protestor and politically engaged zillenial and aloof from others but also upstages everyone at the same time does update her originally.

Is this taking into account that MJ wasn't supposed to be the franchise's most iconic love interest?

We don't actually know that "MJ wasn't supposed to be the franchise's most iconic love interest".

Remember that Steve Ditko was the plotter on all issues from ASM#25 to ASM#38. Ditko was the one who wrote MJ's first Pre-Introduction where she's at Aunt May's house and Liz and Betty look at her and collectively think "Yep we're done when Peter sees her". Then in ASM#38 what he knew going in was his last issue, he took care to add in that subplot on the way out, setting her up. In other words, it's possible (but as of now, not provable) that Ditko intended MJ to be the big love interest going forward.

Stan Lee of course did that whole song and dance that he intended Gwen to be the love interest and MJ to be a tease but you don't sustain and build a "tease" for 28 issues. Mary Jane's first mention in ASM#15 (Kraven's first issue) was May saying that some day she and Peter would be married. So she was established and set-up to be someone special for a good long while. Likewise Gwen being intended to be the love interest doesn't explain how she was characterized in Ditko's issues as a spoiled Liz Allan-in-College copy (although she is grandly entertaining in a Proto-Emma Frost sense).

Given that Stan Lee is a proven liar* and unreliable narrator of the highest degree, there's no reason at all to prioritize anything he says over close-reading of the original comics.

Yiiiiikes. Speaking as a ginger, we're not an endangered species in media, I assure you.

While that's true and you are right to pushback against that exaggeration, Mary Jane being red-headed per '60s norms was intended to suggest or signify that she was a "loose woman" and so on. A lot of writers (Owsley, Larsen, and others) have said sexist stuff about MJ which fits in with that old stereotype. The fact that MJ was popular and beloved was pretty shocking and upsetting to those schooled in old stereotypes.



* Some people might object to the phrase "proven liar" as a touch too strong (might favor the Lee has a "bad memory" defense) but again when someone is documented more than 10-20 times for saying things in public that are easily disprovable and doing so consistently over decades (when he'd be young enough for "poor memory" to fly less as an excuse) I don't know how you can't call him a "proven liar". People like Stan Lee I guess, but people like Pinocchio too and he's also a "proven liar".

[Kevinroc]

We don't actually know that "MJ wasn't supposed to be the franchise's most iconic love interest".

Remember that Steve Ditko was the plotter on all issues from ASM#25 to ASM#38. Ditko was the one who wrote MJ's first Pre-Introduction where she's at Aunt May's house and Liz and Betty look at her and collectively think "Yep we're done when Peter sees her". Then in ASM#38 what he knew going in was his last issue, he took care to add in that subplot on the way out, setting her up. In other words, it's possible (but as of now, not provable) that Ditko intended MJ to be the big love interest going forward.

Stan Lee of course did that whole song and dance that he intended Gwen to be the love interest and MJ to be a tease but you don't sustain and build a "tease" for 28 issues. Mary Jane's first mention in ASM#15 (Kraven's first issue) was May saying that some day she and Peter would be married. So she was established and set-up to be someone special for a good long while. Likewise Gwen being intended to be the love interest doesn't explain how she was characterized in Ditko's issues as a spoiled Liz Allan-in-College copy (although she is grandly entertaining in a Proto-Emma Frost sense).

Given that Stan Lee is a proven liar* and unreliable narrator of the highest degree, there's no reason at all to prioritize anything he says over close-reading of the original comics.

* Some people might object to the phrase "proven liar" as a touch too strong (might favor the Lee has a "bad memory" defense) but again when someone is documented more than 10-20 times for saying things in public that are easily disprovable and doing so consistently over decades (when he'd be young enough for "poor memory" to fly less as an excuse) I don't know how you can't call him a "proven liar". People like Stan Lee I guess, but people like Pinocchio too and he's also a "proven liar".

Whatever Ditko's intentions were in regards to Mary Jane are forever unknowable, but it's pretty clear that Romita made a statement when MJ was finally properly introduced not long after he took over as the artist. Ditko's Gwen was certainly written the way the female love interests were always written under Ditko.

[Kevinroc]

I did say MODERN, didn't I?
MJ, Iris, Jimmy in both the shows and cartoons, Starfire, Hawkgirl , Wally West are all red-heads who either got different hair or race changed or both.
I'm not saying it's a problem, I just wanna know why red-heads.

It's not about redheads. Jason Mamoa as Aquaman (a blonde haired white guy in the comics)? Pedro Pascal as Maxwell Lord (a brown haired white guy in the comics)? Jurnee Smollett as Black Canary (usually depicted as a blonde haired white woman in the comics)? Aldis Hodge as Hawkman (a dark haired white guy in the comics)? Sasha Calle as Supergirl (a blonde haired white girl in the comics)?

A lot of these characters were introduced a very long time ago. And are not indicative of the world as it exists today.

But you didn't mention Scott Lang (a redhead in the comics) being portrayed by the white but also dark haired Paul Rudd. Or his (in the comics) usually blonde haired daughter Cassie having brown hair in the MCU (although we don't know if Cassie will still have brown hair with her recast for the next Ant-Man film).

[Spiderfan001]

It's not about redheads. Jason Mamoa as Aquaman (a blonde haired white guy in the comics)? Pedro Pascal as Maxwell Lord (a brown haired white guy in the comics)? Jurnee Smollett as Black Canary (usually depicted as a blonde haired white woman in the comics)? Aldis Hodge as Hawkman (a dark haired white guy in the comics)? Sasha Calle as Supergirl (a blonde haired white girl in the comics)?

A lot of these characters were introduced a very long time ago. And are not indicative of the world as it exists today.

But you didn't mention Scott Lang (a redhead in the comics) being portrayed by the white but also dark haired Paul Rudd. Or his (in the comics) usually blonde haired daughter Cassie having brown hair in the MCU (although we don't know if Cassie will still have brown hair with her recast for the next Ant-Man film).

Supergirl is playing a future kid of Superman IIRC, not Kara.

But it's definitely a pattern.Look it up online, I'm not making this up.

And if anything red was viewed as loose back in the day, we have people with colored hair more now than ever so if anything we should get more.

[Kevinroc]

Supergirl is playing a future kid of Superman IIRC, not Kara.

But it's definitely a pattern.Look it up online, I'm not making this up.

And if anything red was viewed as loose back in the day, we have people with colored hair more now than ever so if anything we should get more.

The people who talk about it being "a pattern" are not the kind of people I want to associate myself with. (Also you brushed past every other example I mentioned.)

[Spiderfan001]

The people who talk about it being "a pattern" are not the kind of people I want to associate myself with. (Also you brushed past every other example I mentioned.)

You gave 4 examples of different cases.I gave examples of red-heads being race-changed or loosing the red hair or both.
5 red-heads have been race changed in recent times(I would say 6 but I'm not sure about Hawkgirl), and Batgirl is race changed in the new casting as well so make it 6-7.
You don't have to agree w/ it but there is a tendency at the very least.

[Kevinroc]

You gave 4 examples of different cases.I gave examples of red-heads being race-changed or loosing the red hair or both.
5 red-heads have been race changed in recent times(I would say 6 but I'm not sure about Hawkgirl), and Batgirl is race changed in the new casting as well so make it 6-7.
You don't have to agree w/ it but there is a tendency at the very least.

We're trying to tell you to stop going down this road. The point of such castings is to more accurately reflect the real world.

I say all this, and I don't even care about MCU Spider-Man or Zendaya's MJ.

[Frontier]

White or otherwise, I think red hair is an important character trait for Mary Jane.

[Kevinroc]

I hate that we have never had "Face it, tiger" in a Spider-Man film. Aunt May setting her nephew up with MJ, who later reveals herself to actually be a great partner for Peter, is an elevating factor for the characters. There's a lot of subtext that is just gone without it.

She might as well have had "future girlfriend" tattooed on her forehead when she first appeared in Homecoming. So disappointing.

[Spiderfan001]

We're trying to tell you to stop going down this road. The point of such castings is to more accurately reflect the real world.

I say all this, and I don't even care about MCU Spider-Man or Zendaya's MJ.

Who's we?You and Tendrin?

And the modern world has less red-heads?And as for race-changing I agree it is acceptable(I still prefer using existing POC characters instead of it) but why red-heads in particular.I'm just curious.

[Spiderfan001]

White or otherwise, I think red hair is an important character trait for Mary Jane.

agreed, Zendaya would make a great MJ.Just change her hair and personality.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I hate that we have never had "Face it, tiger" in a Spider-Man film. Aunt May setting her nephew up with MJ, who later reveals herself to actually be a great partner for Peter, is an elevating factor for the characters. There's a lot of subtext that is just gone without it.

She might as well have had "future girlfriend" tattooed on her forehead when she first appeared in Homecoming. So disappointing.

Okay here's a controversial opinion I've been keeping from myself for some time.

"Face it tiger" is a terrible nonsensical line of dialogue that makes no damn sense. It's an overrated bit and not at all essential to Mary Jane as a character.

Having this bizarre fixation on Stan Lee's bizarre attempt to write dialogue for a character that he admitted he lost control over, is people letting their nostalgia goggles override their senses.