The GEORGE PEREZ ERA: Setting The Record Straight

[Agent Z]

Perez's greatest legacy was transforming Wonder Woman into an agent of murder. William Marston's Wonder Woman was one of the first heroes to begin with a no kill policy. Now there are instances where you could accuse Wonder Woman of 'killing,' like aliens and monsters and junk, but at the time it wasn't considered murder as they were non-human.

Wonder Woman's killing of Deimos is framed as an act of killing and fundamentally changed the character. Once you allow a character to kill once...it is pretty much over. Even if Perez did not kill another person (or God), other writers now have the justification to do the same with their big bad as seen in Rucka's run.

Diana only killed when there was absolutely no choice and even then she hardly has the highest kill count in superhero comics. Wolverine and the Punisher easily outclass her. In fact, people seem to talk more about whether she's wearing pants or who her boyfriend is than how many people she's killed so that should tell you something about her "Agent of Murder" status.

[Largo161]

I'm removing my original post. I don't want to get into a debate.

[Pinsir]

Diana only killed when there was absolutely no choice and even then she hardly has the highest kill count in superhero comics. Wolverine and the Punisher easily outclass her. In fact, people seem to talk more about whether she's wearing pants or who her boyfriend is than how many people she's killed so that should tell you something about her "Agent of Murder" status.

I'm not saying she is as bad as those Marvel 'heroes,' but she is often written as a person who doesn't even try to reason or help or reform her enemies. This is partly why I favour Azzarello's version over Perez.

Also I'm not sure why (well I actually do) people bash Azzarello for things Perez did;

> he significantly changed Cheetah's and other WW rogues origins (For the most part I'm fine with)
> he got rid of the invisible plane (which I'm fine with)
> he mythologized WW and her world (Before the God's resided on their respective planet, and were more or less technological beings)
> He made the Amazons less technologically savvy, removes some of their key elements like their sexuality, reform island
> he removed her sexuality
> he made Steve Treavor Etta Candy's love interest

Probably some other stuff too.

[SeanT]

He also removed Aphrodite as her patron, replacing that with a sextet of gods and goddesses, making her the Olympian champion, more akin to Hercules. Going from warrior of love to an ambassador of peace was a huge mistake. How do you fight for peace exactly? And how many exciting stories can you write about an ambassador? Most ongoing creators ignored that aspect anyway (including Perez).

He got rid of Diana Prince, Amazon training, the mythology surrounding the bracelets and lasso (incredibly important if you know about Marston's ideas of loving submission), transformation island; he even replaced female empowerment with stories of female victimhood (Lucy and Myndi). Instead of Marston's idea that a woman's beauty and sexuality would be a source of strength, it became a source of degradation-- all the beautiful females in Marston's stories were taken advantage of (Lucy, Myndi, Silver Swan). Perez even stated in an interview he wouldn't have Diana involved with a man because he figured she was so naive she's too easily be taken advantage of.

It seems pretty clear that Perez went out of his way to ignore all the Marstonian aspects, getting rid of her unique mythology and making her a female equivalent of Thor.

[Agent Z]

I'm not saying she is as bad as those Marvel 'heroes,' but she is often written as a person who doesn't even try to reason or help or reform her enemies. This is partly why I favour Azzarello's version over Perez.

That's because comic book villains have become more and more bloodthirsty, with list of atrocities that would make even the hardened war criminals vomit. Diana is compassionate, but she knows the difference between a victim and a victimizer.

Also I'm not sure why (well I actually do) people bash Azzarello for things Perez did;

> he significantly changed Cheetah's and other WW rogues origins (For the most part I'm fine with)
> he got rid of the invisible plane (which I'm fine with)
> he mythologized WW and her world (Before the God's resided on their respective planet, and were more or less technological beings)
> He made the Amazons less technologically savvy, removes some of their key elements like their sexuality, reform island
> he removed her sexuality
> he made Steve Treavor Etta Candy's love interest

Probably some other stuff too.

>This I'll give you, though at least Minerva was still used
>He gave the gods a greater role, but we still had non-mythology inspired characters and stories. In Azzarello's run, the one human character we'd been following was just a puppet for Athena.
>Even without the lack of advanced tech, the Amazons were still philisophers, artists etc. The problem is that Azzarello's Amazons aren't anymore than warriors and they're not even particularly impressive ones.
>No, he just didn't have her in stories focusing on her getting a guy.

[Darius]

But her power set now comes from Zeus with a slight addition from Hermes(for flight). Her costume is now completely lacking gold and the belt is totally different(I do like the new costume a lot with the exception of the belt). Ares played a key role in her training now. Her weapons beyond her lasso and bracelets used to come from the Amazon smiths, now they all come shooting out of her bracelets courtesy of Heph. Azz introduced Zola and left out every other one of her human supporting cast with the exception of Steve's WASH appearance in the Secret Origin.

I consider all of these things to be very minor. Her powers have been Olympian in origin since Kanigher first started adding"Blessing" into her origin in the 1950s ... All Zeus daddy has done is make them the product of genetics rather than whim, she's still empowered by the gods. Her weapons have been god forged, at least the ones that mattered, since at least Perez ... The new ability in the bracelets is an addition to the character much like adding flight in the 1960s ... I'd call that an evolution not a reboot.

Her outfit wasn't Azz's decision, but it still plays no role in calling this a reboot, they changed up a color scheme, but it's essentially the same outfit. Sure it loses the American flag motif, but that's been unused for decades anyway. And it's not like it's the first time even since Perez that it's been changed.

Supporting characters being left out of a run happens all over comics. Azzarello clearly wanted to be able to have the freedom of his own creations ... That's a writers prerogative IMO. And how much worse would it have been if he had taken an established character (Artemis for example) and used her in the Aleka role ... Then all we'd have is a dead Artemis and the complainers would be up in arms over that. I would have agreed with your point here if I thought any of the existing characters would have enhanced Azzarello's story, but to me they weren't necessary. So I'm happy he just left them to the next writers to define.

Perez was out to create a new and more compelling character with a new origin ... He wrote an origin story and then went on to build her for the next 5 years. From what I've read Azzarello pitched a story to DC. One he wanted to tell that wasn't meant to be an origin. Faulting him for not telling a new origin doesn't make sense. Fault DC for not hiring someone who wanted to write a new origin for her.

[Pinsir]

He also removed Aphrodite as her patron, replacing that with a sextet of gods and goddesses, making her the Olympian champion, more akin to Hercules. Going from warrior of love to an ambassador of peace was a huge mistake. How do you fight for peace exactly? And how many exciting stories can you write about an ambassador? Most ongoing creators ignored that aspect anyway (including Perez).

He got rid of Diana Prince, Amazon training, the mythology surrounding the bracelets and lasso (incredibly important if you know about Marston's ideas of loving submission), transformation island; he even replaced female empowerment with stories of female victimhood (Lucy and Myndi). Instead of Marston's idea that a woman's beauty and sexuality would be a source of strength, it became a source of degradation-- all the beautiful females in Marston's stories were taken advantage of (Lucy, Myndi, Silver Swan). Perez even stated in an interview he wouldn't have Diana involved with a man because he figured she was so naive she's too easily be taken advantage of.

It seems pretty clear that Perez went out of his way to ignore all the Marstonian aspects, getting rid of her unique mythology and making her a female equivalent of Thor.

I'm not even against some or even most of the changes you mentioned. Perez run was necessary in making WW important again and I think is pretty good too. I just don't get it when people talk about the Perez version as the definitive form of the character. There was forty years of Wonder Woman before Perez!

Honestly the only genuine bad parts I can pin to Perez come from his legacy;
> the murder bit I already explained (and documented if you check out my link below!)
> the 'fanboyism' of Jimenez and Rucka and other writers who idolized this version and more or less cause the brand to become stagnant once more (Gail Simone is probably one of the only writers between Perez and Azzarello who has a Wonder Woman that feels unique. This is probably up to debate and I admit to not reading everything so...)

[Dr. Poison]

Perez's greatest legacy was transforming Wonder Woman into an agent of murder. William Marston's Wonder Woman was one of the first heroes to begin with a no kill policy. Now there are instances where you could accuse Wonder Woman of 'killing,' like aliens and monsters and junk, but at the time it wasn't considered murder as they were non-human.

Wonder Woman's killing of Deimos is framed as an act of killing and fundamentally changed the character. Once you allow a character to kill once...it is pretty much over. Even if Perez did not kill another person (or God), other writers now have the justification to do the same with their big bad as seen in Rucka's run.

How is killing a god any different than killing an alien? Neither one is human.

[Agent Z]

He also removed Aphrodite as her patron, replacing that with a sextet of gods and goddesses, making her the Olympian champion, more akin to Hercules. Going from warrior of love to an ambassador of peace was a huge mistake. How do you fight for peace exactly? And how many exciting stories can you write about an ambassador? Most ongoing creators ignored that aspect anyway (including Perez).

He got rid of Diana Prince, Amazon training, the mythology surrounding the bracelets and lasso (incredibly important if you know about Marston's ideas of loving submission), transformation island; he even replaced female empowerment with stories of female victimhood (Lucy and Myndi). Instead of Marston's idea that a woman's beauty and sexuality would be a source of strength, it became a source of degradation-- all the beautiful females in Marston's stories were taken advantage of (Lucy, Myndi, Silver Swan). Perez even stated in an interview he wouldn't have Diana involved with a man because he figured she was so naive she's too easily be taken advantage of.

It seems pretty clear that Perez went out of his way to ignore all the Marstonian aspects, getting rid of her unique mythology and making her a female equivalent of Thor.

Diana had nothing in common with Heracles under Perez, whereas under Azzarello she's basically his female clone. As for tales of female victimhood, those were serious issues that needed to be tackled and I respect Perez for doing so and it's not like superhero comics haven't dealt with a lot of heavy topics. If you want to blame someone for Diana becoming a female Thor blame Geoff Johns.

[Dr. Poison]

I consider all of these things to be very minor. Her powers have been Olympian in origin since Kanigher first started adding"Blessing" into her origin in the 1950s ... All Zeus daddy has done is make them the product of genetics rather than whim, she's still empowered by the gods. Her weapons have been god forged, at least the ones that mattered, since at least Perez ... The new ability in the bracelets is an addition to the character much like adding flight in the 1960s ... I'd call that an evolution not a reboot.

Her outfit wasn't Azz's decision, but it still plays no role in calling this a reboot, they changed up a color scheme, but it's essentially the same outfit. Sure it loses the American flag motif, but that's been unused for decades anyway. And it's not like it's the first time even since Perez that it's been changed.

Supporting characters being left out of a run happens all over comics. Azzarello clearly wanted to be able to have the freedom of his own creations ... That's a writers prerogative IMO. And how much worse would it have been if he had taken an established character (Artemis for example) and used her in the Aleka role ... Then all we'd have is a dead Artemis and the complainers would be up in arms over that. I would have agreed with your point here if I thought any of the existing characters would have enhanced Azzarello's story, but to me they weren't necessary. So I'm happy he just left them to the next writers to define.

Perez was out to create a new and more compelling character with a new origin ... He wrote an origin story and then went on to build her for the next 5 years. From what I've read Azzarello pitched a story to DC. One he wanted to tell that wasn't meant to be an origin. Faulting him for not telling a new origin doesn't make sense. Fault DC for not hiring someone who wanted to write a new origin for her.

Well, I will agree that I'm glad that the sexist brute-cow known as Aleka was axed instead of Artemis. I guess the rest we'll have to agree to disagree on.

[Pinsir]

How is killing a god any different than killing an alien? Neither one is human.

In the Silver Age heroes could kill aliens, monsters, and so on because they were not human (or more specifically human looking). Looking back we can see these actions as 'killing,' but at the time this was not the case.

When Wonder Woman killed Deimos she referred to the act as murder and regrets having to under take the action. The author knew the action was an act of killing, though Perez would not have seen it as murder (and it technically isn't, more of a justifiable homicide).

It is interesting to note that Post-Crisis Superman and Batman killed people too, but Wonder Woman is the only one that seems to have stuck with it. This is probably becuse the Perez version is so defining, while the same can't be said for the other runs.

[SeanT]

Pre-Crisis Wonder Woman was forbidden by Aphrodite's code to take a life. Of course she did from time to time, as when she killed Warhead and his henchmen, but that could be ignored. I'd much prefer a character who has that kind of code she occasionally forgets instead of one who has no code at all.

[daBronzeBomma]

I can't forgive Perez for aging Steve Trevor specifically so he couldn't ever be a viable love interest for Diana, and thus sidelining him from 1987 through 2011.

24 years of neutering, thanks to Perez. Amazing, when you consider that up until 1987, Steve Trevor was arguably every bit as important to the Wonderverse as Lois Lane was to the Superverse at the same point.

Can you imagine Byrne aging Lois Lane specifically so she couldn't ever be a viable love interest for Kal?

Granted, thanks to SUPERMAN/WONDER WOMAN, both beta characters are off to the sidelines now in the New52, but at least there is hope for the future ... if there is a prominent Steve Trevor in the WW solo flick in 2017, you can count on the Sm/WW relationship running its course by then, because: Marketing Synergy!

But, yeah, that (unfortunate) creative decision to ensure the 2nd-most important character in the Wonderverse was so thoroughly and PERMANENTLY demoted throws a lot of shade on the Perez years for me.

[Agent Z]

I can't forgive Perez for aging Steve Trevor specifically so he couldn't ever be a viable love interest for Diana, and thus sidelining him from 1987 through 2011.

24 years of neutering, thanks to Perez. Amazing, when you consider that up until 1987, Steve Trevor was arguably every bit as important to the Wonderverse as Lois Lane was to the Superverse at the same point.

Can you imagine Byrne aging Lois Lane specifically so she couldn't ever be a viable love interest for Kal?

Granted, thanks to SUPERMAN/WONDER WOMAN, both beta characters are off to the sidelines now in the New52, but at least there is hope for the future ... if there is a prominent Steve Trevor in the WW solo flick in 2017, you can count on the Sm/WW relationship running its course by then, because: Marketing Synergy!

But, yeah, that (unfortunate) creative decision to ensure the 2nd-most important character in the Wonderverse was so thoroughly and PERMANENTLY demoted throws a lot of shade on the Perez years for me.

The difference is that Clark had met women before Lois, whereas with Diana you had her literally falling in love with the first man she'd ever met.

[gwangung]

Meh. I think Steve Trevor needed a time out when Perez took over Wonder Woman. He was ill defined, constantly being defined by external events to provoke interest in the character.

And, frankly, he's STILL not that interesting. NuDC has made him a kickass action figure....but that's NOT the way to make him interesting or a fit partner to Diana. Until a writer can make his base character and personality a complementary match to Diana, and to make that match an integral part of the themes of Wonder Woman, the comic, then it's just wasted effort.