Return of the New Gods

[Flash Gordon]

Anyone read Conway/O'Neil's stuff here? It was largely ignored by Kirby, so I don't consider it a part of the saga but I picked up the whole series at a flea market over the weekend. Wonderful art, even if I absolutely hate Orion's generic spandex look (does he really need a giant 'O' on his chest?) In one of the letters pages a fan slams his new look to which is replied "well I'm sure if Kirby got to continue his story, lots of changes would have occurred". Ironically the king does return, and Orion goes back to his OG awesome look, thankfully.

Not the best showing for our fourth world friends, but I had fun.

[Deniz Camp]

Second worst/most destructive take on the New Gods ever.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

Second worst/most destructive take on the New Gods ever.

I'm guessing No. 1 is...


They're your favorite group of characters, right? Hal's your favorite individual, but they're your #1 larger cast?

[Deniz Camp]

I'm guessing No. 1 is...


They're your favorite group of characters, right? Hal's your favorite individual, but they're your #1 larger cast?

Well, Starlin's overall take on the New Gods, yes. It actually began with Cosmic Odyssey, which is as bad a New Gods story as there has ever been (though Mignola's art redeems it), and then continues on into issues 2-4 of the spin off ongoing (first issue written by Evanier, Kirby's former assistant, along with the rest of the series; all of it fairly mediocre, by Evanier's own admission). Then we're blissfully without it for 2 decades, before he comes roaring back.

And yeah, the New Gods are my favorite characters/mythology, and actually Orion is hands down my favorite character in comics. Hal is second.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

Well, Starlin's overall take on the New Gods, yes. It actually began with Cosmic Odyssey, which is as bad a New Gods story as there has ever been (though Mignola's art redeems it), and then continues on into issues 2-4 of the spin off ongoing (first issue written by Evanier, Kirby's former assistant, along with the rest of the series; all of it fairly mediocre, by Evanier's own admission). Then we're blissfully without it for 2 decades, before he comes roaring back.

And yeah, the New Gods are my favorite characters/mythology, and actually Orion is hands down my favorite character in comics. Hal is second.

What specifically about it rubbed you the wrong way, besides the moronic take on Anti-Life? As for Orion, I admit my knowledge of Kirby's original material is very limited (the second Fourth World omnibus is like $200 on Amazon. I love The King, yet I am still but a man), I mainly know him as the guy Morrison gave all the coolest lines to in JLA, which certainly isn't a point against him.

[Deniz Camp]

What specifically about it rubbed you the wrong way, besides the moronic take on Anti-Life? As for Orion, I admit my knowledge of Kirby's original material is very limited (the second Fourth World omnibus is like $200 on Amazon. I love The King, yet I am still but a man), I mainly know him as the guy Morrison gave all the coolest lines to in JLA, which certainly isn't a point against him.

It's everything, literally everything.

On a very basic level, I think it is poorly crafted. A lot of cliche, a video game plot, one dimensional characters, lame macguffins.

But things like Orion apparently being the representative of 'order' and Darkseid of 'chaos' - because chaos is evil and order is good, right? - they're not just incredibly tone deaf and wrong and 180 degrees away from the character (like saying Superman represents nihilism), they're also stupid, childish mistakes to make. It's a change that comes from an inability to grasp complexity.

Orion as a mad, racist, drooling animal who can neither control himself nor formulate any plan beyond 'kill' started here in earnest. The worst elements of the character magnified beyond anything we had seen previously, the best elements stripped away. None of the emotional complexity of the original character, or even one or two of the redeeming qualities of said character.

Darkseid is a blundering, posturing fool whose big plan was a hopeless failure and who cowered and begged and was ultimately used.

The Anti-Life Equation no longer as the grail for totalitarianism, but as a generic big monster, and the resulting loss of resonance of Darkseid's search for that power, of New Genesis's struggle against it.

The constant moral superiority and practical effectiveness of DC's superheroes over all the New Gods.

The Old Gods as advanced aliens, and the New Gods as the same; the loss of the myth, and the scale, and the cyclical nature of god vs evil. The loss of the gods - old and new - reflecting old and new world ideas.

Literally everything I like about the mythology, the characters, the concepts, the notions. All of it was actively stripped away and contradicted, made mundane and brutish and low brow.

Even the worst of their guest appearances at least are just bad showings. Yes, "Apokolips Now" is a travesty, but at least it's just Darkseid and Apokolips being pathetic and weak. This was something else. And it only CONTINUED with "Death...", which further destroyed the mythology by reiterating all the Cosmic Odyssey stuff and then further retconning the Source and the history and all that.

Just, no.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

It's everything, literally everything.

On a very basic level, I think it is poorly crafted. A lot of cliche, a video game plot, one dimensional characters, lame macguffins.

But things like Orion apparently being the representative of 'order' and Darkseid of 'chaos' - because chaos is evil and order is good, right? - they're not just incredibly tone deaf and wrong and 180 degrees away from the character (like saying Superman represents nihilism), they're also stupid, childish mistakes to make. It's a change that comes from an inability to grasp complexity.

Orion as a mad, racist, drooling animal who can neither control himself nor formulate any plan beyond 'kill' started here in earnest. The worst elements of the character magnified beyond anything we had seen previously, the best elements stripped away. None of the emotional complexity of the original character, or even one or two of the redeeming qualities of said character.

Darkseid is a blundering, posturing fool whose big plan was a hopeless failure and who cowered and begged and was ultimately used.

The Anti-Life Equation no longer as the grail for totalitarianism, but as a generic big monster, and the resulting loss of resonance of Darkseid's search for that power, of New Genesis's struggle against it.

The constant moral superiority and practical effectiveness of DC's superheroes over all the New Gods.

The Old Gods as advanced aliens, and the New Gods as the same; the loss of the myth, and the scale, and the cyclical nature of god vs evil. The loss of the gods - old and new - reflecting old and new world ideas.

Literally everything I like about the mythology, the characters, the concepts, the notions. All of it was actively stripped away and contradicted, made mundane and brutish and low brow.

Even the worst of their guest appearances at least are just bad showings. Yes, "Apokolips Now" is a travesty, but at least it's just Darkseid and Apokolips being pathetic and weak. This was something else. And it only CONTINUED with "Death...", which further destroyed the mythology by reiterating all the Cosmic Odyssey stuff and then further retconning the Source and the history and all that.

Just, no.

Yeah, that doesn't sound so great. Remember reading Death and Cosmic Odyssey, recall them as utterly mediocre, except for a decent Orion scene in the first one. The latter was the beginning of the wrecking of John Stewart too, right?

[JLH]

The Return of the New Gods was my first exposure to the characters and led to me reading Kirby's original series. While Kirby's NG will always be my favorite, the Return is easily my "second" fave. I loved it--and recently re-read the run and still found it enjoyable. Loved the wrap-up (although way too short) in Adventure Comics, especially where [35+ YEAR SPOILER HERE lol] in the process of trying to penetrate the Source wall, Darkseid became a Promethean Giant, was hurled back at Apokolips and Desaad blew him out of the sky. Wasn't Don Newton on the art?

[Deniz Camp]

Yeah, that doesn't sound so great. Remember reading Death and Cosmic Odyssey, recall them as utterly mediocre, except for a decent Orion scene in the first one. The latter was the beginning of the wrecking of John Stewart too, right?

Well yeah. It's an odd take on Stewart as a cocky @ss, which didn't make a lot of sense because it wasn't his characterization at all previously (the editor claims it's because Guy Gardner was initially meant to be the starring GL; Starlin denies it). Either way, this is when his arrogance leads to the destruction of the Xanshi solar system, which became the defining event in that character's existence, and remains so to this day.

Whether you feel this is a bad thing is another matter entirely (certainly his prominence I see as bad, and the out of character nature of the whole thing makes it kind of nonsense, but I'm not against upping the pathos of characters).

[Deniz Camp]

For those who enjoyed "Return", remember that the story started up in the First Issue Special (issue 13, IIRC) and that the story was wrapped up as backups in Adventure 459 and 460. You're not getting the full story if you aren't reading those!

[Flash Gordon]

Oh man 'Cosmic Odyssey' was really bad, which is such a shame since Mignola's art on it is so great. Starlin can't even write a good Superman, who instantly dives at Darkseid without even listening to the situation, and is once again the President's pal. Just bad showings all around, though I did like the John Stewart/Martian Manhunter stuff oddly. I will never understand why Starlin is given so much control over these characters since he's done so much damage to the concepts at play.

Order vs Chaos is overly simplistic, though wouldn't Highfather/New Genesis be 'chaotic' force for good whereas Darkseid would be pure 'order'- neither good nor bad just totalitarian?

It just plays into the whole mindset of Darkseid being this big brute who Superman has to knock around once a year, and that's not Darkseid. Not everyone has to be 'good' or 'bad' and he should have other motivations. Orion also has a life beyond "MUST KILL MY FATHER!" (Man I wish Simonson would do a New 52 ORION book and give us the goods).

On that related note, how do you guys like EARTH 2 and all the crapping on the fourth world those books are doing?

[Flash Gordon]

I'd say 'RETURN OF THE NEW GODS' was a pretty bad showing, but 'bad' in the quality of the current FOREVER PEOPLE where it's just a big dumb book without much to read into.

Sad since both books have wonderful art (FP only when Giffen is illustrating).

Imagine what a horrible world it would be if this book had gone on to be the foundation of the Fourth World saga and King Jack never came back to work on the real story? There's even another letter here asking why they forwent the Astro-Harness in favor of a generic laser-blasting gauntlet (the astro-harness is easily one of my favorite things in comics, personally, for the same reasons I love the Silver Surfer)- the answer is the same "Kirby would have changed things too! Everything changes!"

What an interesting and weird little book. I wonder if a younger Starlin read this and thought it was the only NEW GODS book, so he decided to bring it all back? Seems legit.

[colonyofcells]

I grew up with the New Gods version that had Jezebelle of the Fiery Eyes and it had some good stories. Early on, Lonar was killed. Orion was redesigned to look more like the other superheroes.

[HsssH]

On that related note, how do you guys like EARTH 2 and all the crapping on the fourth world those books are doing?

I don't know, at first I was like okay its just basically Stepenwolf and Bedlam doing whatever they do and everyone ignores what Levitz writes anyway. Now I'm getting more annoyed each week with every new issue of World End.

Thou to be honest I was more annoyed by Green Lantern event, dropped whole thing after first act.