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  1. #11566
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post

    I've said before that I hate hair conversations. Male characters almost never get them, but Carol gets it consistently and often in the most insulting ways possible (e.g., "she looks like a boy."). But on the chronology question, I noticed Carol had her hair up during the fight and it was only noticeably long afterward. That suggests to me that the initial pages of Life of Captain Marvel took place before after She-Hulk was cured of the issues from her Mariko Tamaki run but before Avengers #1 started.



    Anyway, the Wonder Woman comparison people are making doesn't make much sense, but is noteworthy since that had a significant retcon as well. If anything, that retcon was more significant because it actually undercut a lot of the original story - Wonder Woman was not born to a man, she was made of clay from a people who couldn't reproduce because they were all women. She grew up as the only child among them. That was so much cooler and unique. Carol's origin is nowhere near that original or unique aside from the part where she's tied up during it.

    I cant stand the fact Marvel made Thor have short hair and DC has Aquaman running around with long hair. It all has to do with what youre use to on a character..theres not many hair conversations cause most characters don't get their look changed for years on end.

    Agree about Wonder Woman's clay origin being pretty special though.

  2. #11567
    Extraordinary Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Daredevil got a haircut in the final few issues of Mark Waid's run. No one commented on that.

    The point being, the hair conversations here tend to objectify her and, more problematically, question her femininity.
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  3. #11568
    Spectacular Member Tantalus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    The Sam Raimi Spider-Man movie literally makes a "Doctor Strange" joke when Sony didn't own the rights to the character. There are maps that referenced Atlantis when Marvel needs Universal's permission to make a Namor movie. Besides, I'm not talking about referencing the X-Men by saying "this is like Rogue." I'm talking about doing an homage where Carol Danvers loses her memory in a similar way to that seen in Avengers Annual 10 (which isn't even an X-Men issue) and is referenced in Brian Reid's Ms. Marvel run (as well as the X-Men).



    Yeah, I said it's a combination of the Brood experimentation with the Rogue memory loss. All an homage, of course, since it doesn't use either of those characters.



    Yeah, at a minimum, I'm willing to give this a chance. I don't think the retcon is necessary unless it leads to a good story, but I don't mind the retcon either.



    Well, halfway predicted it.
    spoilers:
    I was expecting the woman her dad had an affair with was Kree. I didn't really love that idea because I didn't want Carol's mom to not be her mother. I didn't expect her mom to be Kree at all, though. That caught me completely flat footed. I also had considered the idea that the other alien was Carol's half-sister
    end of spoilers



    I thought this story made clear that your first take was correct.



    I've said before that I hate hair conversations. Male characters almost never get them, but Carol gets it consistently and often in the most insulting ways possible (e.g., "she looks like a boy."). But on the chronology question, I noticed Carol had her hair up during the fight and it was only noticeably long afterward. That suggests to me that the initial pages of Life of Captain Marvel took place before after She-Hulk was cured of the issues from her Mariko Tamaki run but before Avengers #1 started.



    I posted my own ideas on how to improve that story (and I don't think this story is inconsistent with the Psyche-Magnetron), but the original story has significant issues. She essentially gets her powers by being a damsel in distress. She has absolutely no agency in that story. That being said, being born a certain way doesn't give one agency either. Either way, she seems to have had her powers triggered by the Psyche-Magnetron. It's not like that story didn't happen.

    Anyway, the Wonder Woman comparison people are making doesn't make much sense, but is noteworthy since that had a significant retcon as well. If anything, that retcon was more significant because it actually undercut a lot of the original story - Wonder Woman was not born to a man, she was made of clay from a people who couldn't reproduce because they were all women. She grew up as the only child among them. That was so much cooler and unique. Carol's origin is nowhere near that original or unique aside from the part where she's tied up during it.
    Ok, just to be sure...

    spoilers:
    You agree with the idea that Carol's dad didn't actually have an affair, at least not in the situation of the letters, and that he was actually "cheating" Carol's mother with her Knee personality? CBR's review of the issue actually talked about that.
    end of spoilers

    About the hair: totally agree with you. We actually have Kris Anka to thanks for this terrible and mess of an idea, because according to him, the short hair is supposed to make her look more military-ish (LoL, like women in the military didn't have long hair and like Carol is actually still in the air force). The way he portrayed Carol was just terrible, and Kris is actually a good artist (his work in The Runways is a good, solid work). Too bad the short hair period happened when the character was getting more attention because of the movie announcement, otherwise, I think it would probably be almost completely forgotten. Because of the timing, I guess it will have at least a little impact in the way newcomers think about Carol's image. Hopefully now that she is in the MCU they won't dare to change her hair again.

    Talking about the MCU hair's situation, I guess the short hair actually had an impact in the decision about the length of Brie Larson's hair. I supposed they didn't want to cut it short, but also didn't want to have it exactly long, because, you know, fans, so they went for a middle term and decided for an almost shoulder length hair. I actually hope that in the other appearances Larson has an even longer hair. Don't get me wrong, she looks good right now, but she looks even better with a really long and straight hair.

    And the whole Diana new 52 origin retcon is just terrible. I guess this is literally the example, even more for the movie, of changing more than 70 years of a character's history so that it wouldn't look too "feminist" (for the lack of a better word) and aggressive to the customs of the general audience. A super powered woman that was born without the need of a man, that was raised in a society of only women and that fights for justice? Outrageous!

    And the Mar-Vell situation, as I said, I really don't care about this origin. For me, Mar-Vell is totally disposable, and if he doesn't appear in the movie, and they come up with another reason for her powers and another reason for her name, I wouldn't really care... I would actually be quite pleased with it. It makes Carol even more her own person and her own hero.
    Last edited by Tantalus; 09-20-2018 at 08:28 PM.

  4. #11569
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tantalus View Post
    About the hair: totally agree with you. We actually have Kris Anka to thanks for this terrible and mess of an idea, because according to him, the short hair is supposed to make her look more military-ish (LoL, like women in the military didn't have long hair and like Carol is actually still in the air force). The way he portrayed Carol was just terrible, and Kris is actually a good artist (his work in The Runways is a good, solid work). Too bad the short hair period happened when the character was getting more attention because of the movie announcement, otherwise, I think it would probably be almost completely forgotten. Because of the timing, I guess it will have at least a little impact in the way newcomers think about Carol's image. Hopefully now that she is in the MCU they won't dare to change her hair again.
    I'm pretty sure that Carol getting short hair was an editorial decision. Kris Anka was just supposed to make a design with it, and find the right hairstyle(as if that was ever gonna be consistent between artists lol).

  5. #11570
    Spectacular Member Tantalus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    I'm pretty sure that Carol getting short hair was an editorial decision. Kris Anka was just supposed to make a design with it, and find the right hairstyle(as if that was ever gonna be consistent between artists lol).
    Well, I can understand the short hair being an editorial decision, even if we're not sure about that, but it doesn't change the fact that Anka didn't need to portray her the way he did.

    Edit:

    Wait, just found again Anka's post about Carol's hair, and you see, it actually was his idea...

    "Everyone on the book liked and agreed with my desire to cut Carol’s hair really short (I just really liked it visually and it happened to also fit the direction of the book)"

    Here is the full post: http://kristaferanka.tumblr.com/post...y-talked-about
    Last edited by Tantalus; 09-20-2018 at 08:27 PM.

  6. #11571
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tantalus View Post
    Well, I can understand the short hair being an editorial decision, even if we're not sure about that, but it doesn't change the fact that Anka didn't need to portray her the way he did.

    Edit:

    Wait, just found again Anka's post about Carol's hair, and you see, it actually was his idea...

    "Everyone on the book liked and agreed with my desire to cut Carol’s hair really short (I just really liked it visually and it happened to also fit the direction of the book)"

    Here is the full post: http://kristaferanka.tumblr.com/post...y-talked-about
    Oh, sorry, this was actually the post I was thinking of about finding the different hairstyles, I misremembered it as him saying it was asked by editorial. I still feel like I remember Sana Amanat saying something about it though, but I might as well be wrong again.

  7. #11572
    Astonishing Member Myetche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    I'm pretty sure that Carol getting short hair was an editorial decision. Kris Anka was just supposed to make a design with it, and find the right hairstyle(as if that was ever gonna be consistent between artists lol).
    KSD eventually had to explain the inconsistent hair designs as being the result of Carol constantly cutting her hair because it grows back incredibly fast.
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  8. #11573
    Spectacular Member Tantalus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Oh, sorry, this was actually the post I was thinking of about finding the different hairstyles, I misremembered it as him saying it was asked by editorial. I still feel like I remember Sana Amanat saying something about it though, but I might as well be wrong again.
    That's fine. I don't remember reading anything about Sana Amanat being involved with the short hair decision. Knowing Anka, it actually makes a lot of sense that this was his idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myetche View Post
    KSD eventually had to explain the inconsistent hair designs as being the result of Carol constantly cutting her hair because it grows back incredibly fast.
    That's funny considering how in Life of Captain Marvel it took 9 months for Carol to grow her hair a couple inches longer than shoulder length. Oh, comics.

  9. #11574
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    The Sam Raimi Spider-Man movie literally makes a "Doctor Strange" joke when Sony didn't own the rights to the character.
    Fair enough.

    There are maps that referenced Atlantis when Marvel needs Universal's permission to make a Namor movie.
    The concept of Atlantis is not something owned by any superhero publisher though.

  10. #11575
    Extraordinary Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tantalus View Post
    Ok, just to be sure...

    spoilers:
    You agree with the idea that Carol's dad didn't actually have an affair, at least not in the situation of the letters, and that he was actually "cheating" Carol's mother with her Knee personality? CBR's review of the issue actually talked about that.
    end of spoilers
    Yes, this.

    About the hair: totally agree with you. We actually have Kris Anka to thanks for this terrible and mess of an idea, because according to him, the short hair is supposed to make her look more military-ish (LoL, like women in the military didn't have long hair and like Carol is actually still in the air force). The way he portrayed Carol was just terrible, and Kris is actually a good artist (his work in The Runways is a good, solid work). Too bad the short hair period happened when the character was getting more attention because of the movie announcement, otherwise, I think it would probably be almost completely forgotten. Because of the timing, I guess it will have at least a little impact in the way newcomers think about Carol's image. Hopefully now that she is in the MCU they won't dare to change her hair again.
    But there's nothing wrong with her having short hair. Plenty of women decide to cut their hair short. And comments that said she "looked like a little boy" were completely beyond the pale.

    And the Mar-Vell situation, as I said, I really don't care about this origin. For me, Mar-Vell is totally disposable, and if he doesn't appear in the movie, and they come up with another reason for her powers and another reason for her name, I wouldn't really care... I would actually be quite pleased with it. It makes Carol even more her own person and her own hero.
    I like Mar-Vell a lot. His stories were never consistent and he probably was never the most popular Captain Marvel when he was in existence. And I like the idea of Carol Danvers continuing his legacy. But the fact that her origin is so intimately tied to his is problematic overall. I'm not opposed to there being a connection, but it's a connection where she has a completely passive role. Have we ever even seen how she got kidnapped by Yon-Rogg? My recollection is Mar-Vell showed up and she was tied to a chair. Then the evil alien device blew up. Then she had powers five to ten years later in real world time.
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  11. #11576
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tantalus View Post
    That's funny considering how in Life of Captain Marvel it took 9 months for Carol to grow her hair a couple inches longer than shoulder length. Oh, comics.
    They shouldn't have bothered with that timeskip, it doesn't fit with Avengers or Infinity Wars.
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  12. #11577
    Spectacular Member Tantalus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    Yes, this.



    But there's nothing wrong with her having short hair. Plenty of women decide to cut their hair short. And comments that said she "looked like a little boy" were completely beyond the pale.



    I like Mar-Vell a lot. His stories were never consistent and he probably was never the most popular Captain Marvel when he was in existence. And I like the idea of Carol Danvers continuing his legacy. But the fact that her origin is so intimately tied to his is problematic overall. I'm not opposed to there being a connection, but it's a connection where she has a completely passive role. Have we ever even seen how she got kidnapped by Yon-Rogg? My recollection is Mar-Vell showed up and she was tied to a chair. Then the evil alien device blew up. Then she had powers five to ten years later in real world time.
    I guess the thing about the hair, at least for me, is that it never looked exactly good. There is no problem with short hair, but the only one that could make short hair applied to Carol work for me is Marquez, and Marquez basically only did Civil War II, so... But that's just my opinion.

    But isn't she actually trying to help Mar-Vell when the explosion happens? Don't know if the story was told like that in the original run or in a slightly retcon after.

  13. #11578
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tantalus View Post
    Ok, just to be sure...

    spoilers:
    You agree with the idea that Carol's dad didn't actually have an affair, at least not in the situation of the letters, and that he was actually "cheating" Carol's mother with her Knee personality? CBR's review of the issue actually talked about that.
    end of spoilers

    About the hair: totally agree with you. We actually have Kris Anka to thanks for this terrible and mess of an idea, because according to him, the short hair is supposed to make her look more military-ish (LoL, like women in the military didn't have long hair and like Carol is actually still in the air force). The way he portrayed Carol was just terrible, and Kris is actually a good artist (his work in The Runways is a good, solid work). Too bad the short hair period happened when the character was getting more attention because of the movie announcement, otherwise, I think it would probably be almost completely forgotten. Because of the timing, I guess it will have at least a little impact in the way newcomers think about Carol's image. Hopefully now that she is in the MCU they won't dare to change her hair again.

    Talking about the MCU hair's situation, I guess the short hair actually had an impact in the decision about the length of Brie Larson's hair. I supposed they didn't want to cut it short, but also didn't want to have it exactly long, because, you know, fans, so they went for a middle term and decided for an almost shoulder length hair. I actually hope that in the other appearances Larson has an even longer hair. Don't get me wrong, she looks good right now, but she looks even better with a really long and straight hair.

    And the whole Diana new 52 origin retcon is just terrible. I guess this is literally the example, even more for the movie, of changing more than 70 years of a character's history so that it wouldn't look too "feminist" (for the lack of a better word) and aggressive to the customs of the general audience. A super powered woman that was born without the need of a man, that was raised in a society of only women and that fights for justice? Outrageous!

    And the Mar-Vell situation, as I said, I really don't care about this origin. For me, Mar-Vell is totally disposable, and if he doesn't appear in the movie, and they come up with another reason for her powers and another reason for her name, I wouldn't really care... I would actually be quite pleased with it. It makes Carol even more her own person and her own hero.
    I don't know about that...I remember when the first revamp and new costume was announced a few years ago, what became the first KSD run with Dexter Soy. Marvel released the Ed Mc Guinness image with Carol's short hair and you had all kinds of people on the internet saying that she looked like a lesbian. By the time the first issue ultimately came out, the art had been altered so that it looked like her her was longish but styled up.

  14. #11579
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    Yes, this.



    But there's nothing wrong with her having short hair. Plenty of women decide to cut their hair short. And comments that said she "looked like a little boy" were completely beyond the pale.



    I like Mar-Vell a lot. His stories were never consistent and he probably was never the most popular Captain Marvel when he was in existence. And I like the idea of Carol Danvers continuing his legacy. But the fact that her origin is so intimately tied to his is problematic overall. I'm not opposed to there being a connection, but it's a connection where she has a completely passive role. Have we ever even seen how she got kidnapped by Yon-Rogg? My recollection is Mar-Vell showed up and she was tied to a chair. Then the evil alien device blew up. Then she had powers five to ten years later in real world time.
    According to some people this is Marvel trying to de-feminize their female characters and further proof of the SJW agenda.

  15. #11580
    Spectacular Member Tantalus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I don't know about that...I remember when the first revamp and new costume was announced a few years ago, what became the first KSD run with Dexter Soy. Marvel released the Ed Mc Guinness image with Carol's short hair and you had all kinds of people on the internet saying that she looked like a lesbian. By the time the first issue ultimately came out, the art had been altered so that it looked like her her was longish but styled up.
    This: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KT8yBvhc0l...EL-PREVIEW.jpg
    Versus
    This: https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...37623561022431

    Just to be sure this is what we're talking about.

    Anyway, according to this interview of McKelvie, who did Carol's redesign, the hair was actually never short: https://www.newsarama.com/9263-jamie...-redesign.html

    Edit: people say a lot of pretty dumb things about the hair. I remembered I saw some comics gate comments about it... terrible
    Last edited by Tantalus; 09-21-2018 at 06:49 AM.

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