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  1. #11836
    Spectacular Member Gridde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    I mostly agree, but the when her mother told her that her powers are "not borrowed. Not a gift. Not an accident" it was clearly supposed to imply that this is more empowering for Carol than her original origin. That's why Carol reacts so strongly when she realizes that the powers are her own, not Mar-Vell's.

    As others have pointed out, this has unfortunate implications because it seems to suggest that being genetically superior all along is really inspiring and empowering. It's not an inspiring message, but they try to play it as though it is.

    This is separate from whether the retcon is good or bad, which I don't want to argue about. And they certainly didn't do it for empowerment reasons, they did it because of orders to make everything more like the MCU. I just don't buy the comic's attempt to portray this as giving her more agency. For better or worse it just suggests that some people are just born lucky and Carol was one of them.
    This really nails it. Looking at the big picture, this story revelation really changes nothing about Carol’s character besides a completely arbitrary distinction about how she got her powers (either way she received her abilities by chance from a source completely outside her control; this source has now been changed from a space bomb to her parents’ genetics).

    What’s troubling is that in her old origins, she got her powers through heroism and selflessness (she’d not have been exposed to the bomb if she hadn’t been a normal human who put herself at risk trying to help Mar-Vell) after years of work and personal achievement, but The Life of Captain Marvel heavily implies that there’s something wrong with this, and simply being born with advantages is objectively better. The dramatic “my powers” panel comes across as sheer egotism, as if all her good deeds and achievements to date are only now validated because they can be attributed completely to Carol (I guess Spider-Man should be ashamed of himself of being ‘accidentally’ ‘gifted’ powers from a spider?).

    As others have said, the whole point of this mini was to make the comic character more in line with the MCU, and all this genetic superiority stuff is just unfortunate by-product of that. Quite humorously, this actually hugely contradicts the mantra maintained by the MCU in general, which is that inborn greatness/power is completely unimportant when compared to one’s actions and their strength of character (eg Tony Stark in general, Cap in general, Thor proving himself worthy while powerless, Starlord’s whole arc in Guardians 2).
    Last edited by Gridde; 10-19-2018 at 04:37 AM.
    People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day.

  2. #11837
    Astonishing Member krazijoe's Avatar
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    See Girls, you can get ahead, forget hard work and determination, just get some alien DNA and that's all you need.
    I know that's a terrible over simplification but to me Carol has always been someone that got ahead due to her determination, stubbornness, smarts and kick ass attitude, while she still retains all of these, her accomplishments are lessened because all along she had KREE DNA that helped set her above her peers.
    Sorta like Barry Bonds. He always had the IT factor to help him succeed but he decided to juice up to really set him above the rest. Carol has that IT and didn't need Alien DNA to help her out, or did she?

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  4. #11839
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    Quote Originally Posted by krazijoe View Post
    See Girls, you can get ahead, forget hard work and determination, just get some alien DNA and that's all you need.
    I know that's a terrible over simplification but to me Carol has always been someone that got ahead due to her determination, stubbornness, smarts and kick ass attitude, while she still retains all of these, her accomplishments are lessened because all along she had KREE DNA that helped set her above her peers.
    Sorta like Barry Bonds. He always had the IT factor to help him succeed but he decided to juice up to really set him above the rest. Carol has that IT and didn't need Alien DNA to help her out, or did she?
    I'm just not seeing it. Her being part Kree doesn't mitigate her former accomplishments at all.

    Heck, Mar-Vell is full Kree. Do we think he's a lesser hero than Captain America or Moon Knight or Hawkeye etc because he was born with slightly greater physical abilities?
    Last edited by ed2962; 10-19-2018 at 06:53 AM.

  5. #11840
    Spectacular Member Gridde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I'm just not seeing it. Her being part Kree doesn't mitigate her former accomplishments at all.

    Heck, Mar-Vell is full Kree. Do we think he's a lesser hero than Captain America or Moon Knight or Hawkeye etc because he was born with slightly greater physical abilities?
    That's...exactly the point some of us are making. Why does the comic suggest Carol or her powers are 'better' because they were gained genetically than through accident/achievement?

    It’d be one thing if they’d just revealed that Carol was always half Kree and just left it at that (in order to tie into the MCU), but the mini makes it very clear that this revelation is meant to be inspiring/empowering/generally a good thing (see: the part where her mom talks about how her powers are "not borrowed. Not gifted. Not an accident." and Carol looks overjoyed and replies "MY powers.").
    People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day.

  6. #11841
    All-New Member VirusChan's Avatar
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    There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of how Carol got her powers. Carol was willing to leave a hospital after suffering a concussion because she had the desire to help Mar-vell. When she was captured and was watching helplessly as Mar-vell tried to rescue her the only thing going through her mind was a desire to help him, a desire to stand beside him as an equal. It was that wish that gave Carol powers, no accident but a simple desire to help the man who had saved her time and time again. That is why Carol is a hero.

  7. #11842
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    I'm not sure why Illuminating Comics is so salty. Her origin is still tied to Mar-Vell since her being his supporting character led to her encounter with the Psyche Magnetron. Her origin is just less like She-Hulk's now and she's still carrying his codename.

  8. #11843
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirteen View Post
    This will be a Mandarin/Trevor level twist.
    "Never assign to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity or ignorance."

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  9. #11844
    Ultimate Member Fokken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gridde View Post
    That's...exactly the point some of us are making. Why does the comic suggest Carol or her powers are 'better' because they were gained genetically than through accident/achievement?
    Does it?
    I didn't get that message. All I got was "Hey, remember that accident that gave you powers? Yeah, well..... that accident STILL gave you powers, but like, not from being next to that dude. Also, I'm an Alien."

    Mama is JUST telling her "Hey gurl. You thought it was this one thing, but its this other thing. Also, look at my Kree gear. Crazy right? Sorry"
    Mama is NOT telling her "Hey gurl. GURL POWER. KREE ESTROGEN FOR THE WIN. Everything you strove for previously is meaningless because ALIEN, baby! Woo!"

    She isn't even saying that her previous perception is BAD. She's just explaining that its inaccurate.
    This revelation is not a dis on Carol, or Mar Vell, or Men, or Humans, or the concept of hard work. Its literally just "Your powers aren't proximity based -- they're genetic."


    Its really remarkable how so many of us have interpreted this issue in such vastly different ways.
    Last edited by Fokken; 10-19-2018 at 09:11 AM.

  10. #11845
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    I'm not sure why Illuminating Comics is so salty. Her origin is still tied to Mar-Vell since her being his supporting character led to her encounter with the Psyche Magnetron.
    It is not that what IC irks, at least to my understanding. Is how things have been piling on.

    What the author loved about Carol it was than Carol was a character more like Spider-man, a very classic Marvel trope, fighting and losing more of the time yet still fighting, trying even if life was dissapointing. A person who had realized she had potential and was fighting, struggling to reaching it, failing and trying again, not always having control but fighting for having it. The Carol who struggled depiste the life being unfair, depiste being treasoned by her friends, depiste her powers being stolen, depiste fall in the same vices than her father, she keep fighting.

    And then Carol became the Marvel female representation card for the movies (even if they already had Black Widow) and they transformed her into the role model and inspiration and loved, admired by everyone in the universe and always being right, because she was CAPTAIN MARVEL, a successful person who doesn't owns nothing to anybody and who is never wrong. (it that what they has been telling, but not exactly what they has been showing).The opposite of the character she was and the one form IC liked.

    It is not the "erasing" of Mar-Vell from Carol origin what annoys the IC fan, as much the changes made on the personality and context of Carol. It has been a constant in the several retellings of the Carol Danvers origin from the last years to avoid even mention she owes her powers and identity to another character, almost like something to be ashamed of. But that connection it was something than defines who is (was) Carol.

    And now they changed her origin again, putting the emphasis in those being "Her powers and not borrowed" and avoiding Mar-Vell again.It was he even mentioned one time in the issue in question? It like telling the origin of Vision without mentioning Ultron. But of course, the objetive is take off Mar-Vell outside Carol's origin.
    And,well, when Marvel added to that a twist in the origin telling "Carol is not someone who by accident gained superpowers and her personality make her a hero; she is someone destined to become a hero because of her supernatural linage/divine birthright", it was the last straw for that fan.
    I can understand that feeling. The character he/she likes is no more, there is other one using her name. Other people would like but for this person it was enough. He/she expresed the frustration in IC and now has choose to go away with his/her own projects. A very most constructive way to express his/her feelings.


    Her origin is just less like She-Hulk's now and she's still carrying his codename.
    But they tried to make her "Hulk" not so long ago.

    This retcon is basically to erase the Mar-Vell/Carol dependence relationship. But then, why to use the name of that soldier, if he is so irrelevant to her history? It would not surprise me if in issue 5 it is revealed than Captain Marvel was not Mar-Vell proper name but a kree title to superb efficient kree officers or a legendary Kree title, like the name Nightwing was for the kryptonian people in DC. Maybe that will be revealed in the movie.
    "Never assign to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity or ignorance."

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  11. #11846
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    Gender swapping Mar-Vell won't be a big deal. She's relatively unknown to mainstream audiences and the general public, even among comic fans Mar-Vell isn't widely popular. I guess if there is any character Marvel can get away with this on its Carol.
    The J-man

  12. #11847
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirteen View Post
    I would hate, hate, HATE that with a burning passion. Like, it's ok if they want to write Mar-Vell off of her story in the MCU. She could have an independent origin story, even tied to her mom. I have nothing against that. But the idea that you have to fundamentally erase who Mar-Vell is to replace him with a character who literally did nothing interesting in comics until last Wednesday is just fucking absurd. Can't Carol and her mom exist in the MCU without screwing Mar-Vell over? This theory is just lazy and selfish, because it doesn't take into consideration the fans who want to see Mar-Vell and HIS story in the MCU. He was much more than just the guy who gave Carol her powers, and he deserves to be portrayed as such.

  13. #11848
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    Quote Originally Posted by VirusChan View Post
    There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of how Carol got her powers. Carol was willing to leave a hospital after suffering a concussion because she had the desire to help Mar-vell. When she was captured and was watching helplessly as Mar-vell tried to rescue her the only thing going through her mind was a desire to help him, a desire to stand beside him as an equal. It was that wish that gave Carol powers, no accident but a simple desire to help the man who had saved her time and time again. That is why Carol is a hero.
    And that's probably what they want to change, because for many that hasn't aged well. Also none of the male leads in the MCU films thus far have origins that involve them being kidnapped and completely helpless when they get their powers, so they probably realize that having their first female-led film be that way, wouldn't go down too well.

  14. #11849
    Bishop was right. Sighphi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirteen View Post
    That's what they just did in the comic, her mom is essentially Cap Marv. She was sent to earth for recon and she fell in love with the people, wait with one person. BTW, that's not very girl power, is it? She landed and became the girlfriend. What info are you going to gather being the girlfriend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    And that's probably what they want to change, because for many that hasn't aged well.
    What do you mean hasn't age well? How is an accident an issue now?

    Also none of the male leads in the MCU films thus far have origins that involve them being kidnapped and completely helpless when they get their powers, so they probably realize that having their first female-led film be that way, wouldn't go down too well.
    You know they could write it like Iron Man and have her helping in the fight.

  15. #11850
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gridde View Post
    That's...exactly the point some of us are making. Why does the comic suggest Carol or her powers are 'better' because they were gained genetically than through accident/achievement?

    It’d be one thing if they’d just revealed that Carol was always half Kree and just left it at that (in order to tie into the MCU), but the mini makes it very clear that this revelation is meant to be inspiring/empowering/generally a good thing (see: the part where her mom talks about how her powers are "not borrowed. Not gifted. Not an accident." and Carol looks overjoyed and replies "MY powers.").
    Yes, that is the message I got as well. "You didn't get your powers from a guy - they come from your mom."

    For heaven's sake, you don't see Peter Parker angsting because he got his power from a freakin spider!
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