Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers) Appreciation - "Higher, Further, Faster, More!"

[ed2962]

One thing to note - there's a reference to House of M. She says that's what made her confident enough to become Captain Marvel. But she actually took up the mantle at the start of Kelly Sue DeConnick's run, not Brian Reed's, where she was still Ms. Marvel. Are they trying to retcon that she's been the Captain longer than she actually has?

If I remember correctly in the alternate world of House of M Carol was in fact calling herself Capt Marvel. After it ended she said that it inspired her to try to become a better hero and this was around the start of the Reed run even though she was back to using "Ms" when the present corrected its self.

[responsarbre]

One thing to note - there's a reference to House of M. She says that's what made her confident enough to become Captain Marvel. But she actually took up the mantle at the start of Kelly Sue DeConnick's run, not Brian Reed's, where she was still Ms. Marvel. Are they trying to retcon that she's been the Captain longer than she actually has?

I didn't read it to mean that, personally. There wasn't an explicit timeframe on the statement, she was just saying that one thing led to another, and it was clearly referencing the self-improvement kick that she went on during Reed's run after she saw what she was like in House of M. I think it's easy to see Carol adopting the Captain Marvel codename as the culmination of the journey that she was taking over the course of Brian Reed's run. After all, in House of M, she went by Captain Marvel, so you can see how taking on that identity closes the book on her mission to be more like that version of Carol Danvers.

[Lucas 35]

Was it not because of House of M that she returned to using the name Ms. Marvel?

[ed2962]

Was it not because of House of M that she returned to using the name Ms. Marvel?

It's where it happened I guess. I think in the begining of the story, she and a couple of other heroes are entering Stark Tower and she gives she Ms Marvel code name. Wonder Man or somebody says something like, "Oh so you're using your old name now?" Carol is like, "Eh, thinking about it."

[Tiamatty]

Why are people surprised that some are critiquing Captain Marvel's look? Shockingly, comics are a VISUAL MEDIUM. The way a character looks is very important, otherwise they wouldn't all have unique and colorful costumes. To say that a character's appearance isn't important is absurd. And frankly, claiming that people want "something to masturbate to" highlights your own immaturity than anything else, if that's where your mind immediately goes to.

Yes, a distinctive look is very valuable. Which is why it's great that Carol has such a distinctive look now, as opposed to Generic Black Leotard With Generic Lightning Bolt. McKelvie's design was as damned close to perfect as I've seen for a superhero costume. But apparently, it's garbage, because she isn't showing a lot of flesh. Because it's not designed specifically with sex appeal in mind. Apparently, the single most important factor that has to be taken into consideration for a woman's costume is, "Is this sexy enough?" All other considerations fall behind how easy it is to ogle the woman.

When people bitch about the uniform not being "sexy enough," that is what they're saying. They're saying they want to be able to ogle the character. And yeah, "not sexy enough" is the single biggest criticism with the Captain Marvel uniform. And the guys making that complaint are, let's be honest here, misogynists. They are misogynists, because they are judging a female character based primarily on how attractive they find her. And you can bet your ass they apply that same attitude to real women, too.

[CraigTheCylon]

Yes, a distinctive look is very valuable. Which is why it's great that Carol has such a distinctive look now, as opposed to Generic Black Leotard With Generic Lightning Bolt. McKelvie's design was as damned close to perfect as I've seen for a superhero costume. But apparently, it's garbage, because she isn't showing a lot of flesh. Because it's not designed specifically with sex appeal in mind. Apparently, the single most important factor that has to be taken into consideration for a woman's costume is, "Is this sexy enough?" All other considerations fall behind how easy it is to ogle the woman.

When people bitch about the uniform not being "sexy enough," that is what they're saying. They're saying they want to be able to ogle the character. And yeah, "not sexy enough" is the single biggest criticism with the Captain Marvel uniform. And the guys making that complaint are, let's be honest here, misogynists. They are misogynists, because they are judging a female character based primarily on how attractive they find her. And you can bet your ass they apply that same attitude to real women, too.

...but while I'm here, a couple other points.

Point the first!

Honestly, do you want to spend money to look at a character who looks like this?

http://covers.cbrd.info/character_4657_f.jpg

Then don't expect me to spend money on a character that looks like this (And that's not anywhere near the worst I've seen).

http://www.comicbookreligion.com/img...ol_Danvers.jpg

Green Knight, I'm a touch confused by your choice of picture here. Given your primary complaint - and you'll have to forgive me if I can't type this without a prolonged and exhausted sigh oh look here it comes sssssiiiiiiiiiggggggggggggghhhhhh - is Carol being 'drawn like a man', I...would not have thought Ed McGuinness' take would fall under that criteria. I mean, painted eyelashes, full lips, uhm...noticable bosom, and even with the sash her hips are wide enough for an hourglass physique. Those points all strike me as feminine. Fair play if you know a lot of dudes who look like that. OTOH, zero fair play if this is still just about the ****ing hair. Is 'long hair' the only visual benchmark you use to differentiate sex? Is...is that why you're upset about that Azrael pic? Oh no, his hair's too long! Those DC bastards turned him into a woman!

Further, saying the two linked pics are comparable in design or execution is like saying a horse and a guinea pig are basically identical 'cause they both walk on four legs.

Point the second!

I may have brought this up before, but just for funsies, here's a study question for y'all: what did the old Ms. Marvel outfit tell you about Carol? And no, you can't just say "it was good" or "I liked it better". Give me details, give me thoughts. Tell me what it is I'm missing after having digested practically Carol's entire on-panel life, because that outfit never meant squat to me beyond making it really embarrassing to explain to my mother what I was reading back then.

What's the significance of the opera gloves and thigh boots? Was Carol ever a dominatrix? Or an exotic dancer?

What does the lightning bolt on the torso mean to a hero whose origins and powers have absolutely nothing to do with lightning?

What function does the red sash serve beyond bonus titillation points, i.e. leaving a markedly-loose item of clothing over the rest of the costume further exaggerates just how tight and clingy the rest of it is? (trick question, that is absolutely its only purpose)

Answers on a postcard, most creative entry wins a no-prize.

[mikeb]

I always thought the sash was her scarf from her original outfit. It could be a mark of honor like the sash Worf wore in Star Trek TNG.

[Fokken]

I wish I could google alert me for every time Craig the Cylon posts.

[Tiamatty]

I always thought the sash was her scarf from her original outfit. It could be a mark of honor like the sash Worf wore in Star Trek TNG.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the sash was meant as a carry-over from her original outfit. It also injected a needed dose of colour, and helped to convey motion.

But yeah, the leotard's only real message was "this looks pretty all right." It was never meant to say anything about Carol.

[Wiccan]

Why are people surprised that some are critiquing Captain Marvel's look? Shockingly, comics are a VISUAL MEDIUM. The way a character looks is very important, otherwise they wouldn't all have unique and colorful costumes. To say that a character's appearance isn't important is absurd. And frankly, claiming that people want "something to masturbate to" highlights your own immaturity than anything else, if that's where your mind immediately goes to.

Comics, once again, are a visual medium. If a characters design is aesthetically displeasing, then it's a problem, because part of what a comic counts on to sell itself are the visuals. Which is why people complain about the looks of characters all the time, both male and female.

I don't think anyone is saying visual isn't important. What shouldn't be so important is for her to be sexualized. If the black costume covered her up completely and the artists drew her body with normal proportions, I doubt so many people would be asking for it. It's not like the lightning bolt or whatever is what they like.

Marvel Comics aren't made for porn neither are they made for people to have their waifus or this sort of thing. I understand why some people don't like Carol's current hair, but even when she didn't had it, some people still complained just because of how the Captain Marvel costume covered her up and artists didn't focus so much on her boobs and thighs anymore. And honestly, if you were a fan of her before but you don't like her anymore just because of a costume or haircut? Then sorry but I don't think you're really a fan.

And aesthetically, her hair looks terrible on the character. And if we want to put her forward as Marvel's top female hero... then wouldn't it be nice if she were actually drawn to look like a woman? I can't count the number of times artists have drawn her looking like a man. If I'm being asked to look at a character page after page, then the character's design has to be aesthetically pleasing. And looking at Carol Danvers nowadays is as aesthetically displeasing

There are a couple of artists that draw her kind of "looking like a man", but, no, is not THAT common. Most of the time people claim she looks like a man just because she has short hair and no big boobs.

For me, those Carols all look quite aesthetically pleasing:

[Tiamatty]

Your rebuttal is totally meaningless, because subjective opinions are subjective. Your subjective opinion on those two costumes being miles apart has no more validity than my opinion that they’re both utter trash. Difference is, I have sales figures backing up my opinion that Captain Marvel has significant problems holding her back from being a popular character, and I would like her to be a popular character. But as she stands, she’s not. And I suspect the butch hairstyle and terrible costume hurt, not help.

There's a bunch of reasons Carol's series hasn't been doing well in floppies. I'm pretty sure the uniform ain't one of them, unless there were people who'd previously only bought her comics in order to ogle her. Also, sales of floppies have become a very unreliable way of gauging the success of a series. Carol continues to be published, that tells me she sells well enough, in enough markets, to be worth continuing to publish. Also, the costume is a brilliant design.

Straw Man. When did I advocate for the old costume? Pointing out that the current costume is trash doesn’t mean I’m arguing for a return to that costume. What I’m advocating is for Carol to drop the butch hair style which frequently results in artists painting her like a man and giving her a costume which is actually good.

Her current uniform is very good. And her floppy sales were pretty much the same when she had longer hair. The hair isn't turning off anyone other than jackasses who prioritize a woman's appearance over everything else about her. Same with the uniform.



Anyway, this has been fun, but Obvious Troll is starting to bore me now.

[ed2962]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the sash was meant as a carry-over from her original outfit. It also injected a needed dose of colour, and helped to convey motion.

But yeah, the leotard's only real message was "this looks pretty all right." It was never meant to say anything about Carol.

I think it was meant to say, "I'm a spin-off character, but I don't have to dress like it!"

[Frontier]

I think it was meant to say, "I'm a spin-off character, but I don't have to dress like it!"

It'd actually be kind of amusing to think how Marvel's stance or view of the "Ms. Marvel" name has changed over the years, particularly in it's relation to the "Captain Marvel" codename and how that was bandied about over the years.

[Lammasu]

I don't really follow Captain Marvel. Is she still a recovering alcoholic?

[Tiamatty]

I don't really follow Captain Marvel. Is she still a recovering alcoholic?

It seldom gets touched on, but I mean, it's not like it's the kind of thing you ever just get over. Alcoholism is kind of a long-term struggle.