Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers) Appreciation - "Higher, Further, Faster, More!"

[Ascended]

So quick question:

When "Carol" was in Rogue's head.....I've never read much from that era. I've always assumed it was an imprint of Carol's psyche in Rogue's mind (something which has happened since, I believe?) but I've seen a few comments about it that seem to say it was Carol's actual mind. So which is it?

[Mike_Murdock]

So quick question:

When "Carol" was in Rogue's head.....I've never read much from that era. I've always assumed it was an imprint of Carol's psyche in Rogue's mind (something which has happened since, I believe?) but I've seen a few comments about it that seem to say it was Carol's actual mind. So which is it?

When Rogue absorbed Carol's powers, she basically absorbed her entire mind and psyche. Carol was left basically as a shell without any memories while Rogue ended up with everything that made Carol Carol - her memories, the emotional attachments to them, her talents, etc. This was usually buried deep in her subconscious but, in times of stress, Carol's psyche would manifest and take over Rogue's body. In that issue, it specifically mentioned that Rogue's accent changed from a Claremont-style southern accent to an unfortunately generically written supposed Boston accent. Rogue has also allowed Carol to take over to take advantage of Carol's secret agent skills.

Carol, on the other hand, had her memories restored by Professor Xavier. That includes the skills that she learned with those memories, but it doesn't include any emotional attachments to those memories. She recognizes her father in the sense reading a newspaper would let you recognize the President and she can recall the specific instances in the past involving him the same way I can recall something I was taught in a history class. But a lot of what made those memories her memories was ripped from her.

This was explored a bit in X-Men and returned to towards the end of Brian Reed's run on Ms. Marvel.

[mikeb]

When Rogue absorbed Carol's powers, she basically absorbed her entire mind and psyche. Carol was left basically as a shell without any memories while Rogue ended up with everything that made Carol Carol - her memories, the emotional attachments to them, her talents, etc. This was usually buried deep in her subconscious but, in times of stress, Carol's psyche would manifest and take over Rogue's body. In that issue, it specifically mentioned that Rogue's accent changed from a Claremont-style southern accent to an unfortunately generically written supposed Boston accent. Rogue has also allowed Carol to take over to take advantage of Carol's secret agent skills.

Carol, on the other hand, had her memories restored by Professor Xavier. That includes the skills that she learned with those memories, but it doesn't include any emotional attachments to those memories. She recognizes her father in the sense reading a newspaper would let you recognize the President and she can recall the specific instances in the past involving him the same way I can recall something I was taught in a history class. But a lot of what made those memories her memories was ripped from her.

This was explored a bit in X-Men and returned to towards the end of Brian Reed's run on Ms. Marvel.

In UXM#236, when Rogue was held prisoner in Genosha, Rogue released Carol's persona from her sub-conscious because "Carol" convince Rogue she had the skills to escape. Rogue and Carol's persona shared Rogue's body until issue #247 when Rogue was sucked into the Seige Perilous. 14 months and 22 issues later, Rogue and Carol's persona were sepperated into two beings. They got sepperated, Rogue ending up in the Savage Land and the Carol Persona ended up at Miur Island where it came under the control of the Shadow King . The Carol persona came after Rogue because they both shared one life force and wanted Rogue's half. Rogue would not "kill" Carol again and when Rogue was almost a goner, Magneto intervened and killed the Carol persona, saving Rogue's life.UXM#269. Magneto also reinagrated Rogue's matix, restoring the abilities Rogue took from Carol.

[Mike_Murdock]

Yeah, something like that. The only thing I would clarify is that the Siege Perilous is magic so we can't necessarily apply any logic to it.

[mikeb]

In 2002, Rogue lost the powers she took from Carol in Avengers Annual #10 (X-Treme X-Men #19), so Rogue now has nothing she took from Carol.

[Mike_Murdock]

Right, but for purposes of this thread, it's worth pointing out that Carol didn't get those memories back.

That being said, she lost her memory again during KSD's run, so it's not really Rogue at fault at this point.

[mikeb]

Right, but for purposes of this thread, it's worth pointing out that Carol didn't get those memories back.

That being said, she lost her memory again during KSD's run, so it's not really Rogue at fault at this point.

Of course, it wasn't Rogue's fault at this point. Toward the end of Brian Reed's run, wasn't Carol's emotional bond to her past restored?

[Ascended]

Thanks for the answers folks.

I knew a lot of this already, despite not having read many of the issues in question, but was unclear on whether it was just an imprint of Carol's mind or Carol's....soul, I guess, for lack of a better word.

Though I had momentarily forgotten that Carol lost her memories in the process. I knew that, but it had slipped my mind. Could've partially answered my own question if I had stopped for a minute to think it through lol

When did this get explored in Reed's run? I stopped reading somewhere after Secret Invasion. I do recall an issue where she goes home for an awkward visit with her family but I don't remember where that falls in the timeline.

[Mike_Murdock]

The story with her family is #31. I'm not remembering the Rogue story off the top of my head. I might be confusing it with the Mystique story that finishes the run.

[kcekada]

The emphasis on the blue looks terrible. I'd invert the colors, for one. Her original costume had a better color scheme than this one (Although I didn't care for the bikini design on that, and prefer her having pants). Make it red with blue gloves, boots, and shoulders. I'd also remove those gold stripes on the chest. For one, they make her costume look like a ski outfit. Second, they drown out her insignia. That'd be like having stripes over Superman's "S" symbol. Allow the symbol to stand on its own. Third, give her her long hair back. The butch hair styles they keep giving her are as bad as 90's Superman's mullet. It's a visual distraction which adds nothing and which, in the hands of poor artists, tends to contribute to her looking like a man.

That's where I'd start, at least.

Same here. The color scheme from Mar-Vell's outfit and her Ms. Marvel outfits were more dynamic -- and showed off the insignia better. The strips are probably supposed to make her look militaristic, but they distract from the star. She could have a short haircut without it being so butch. As much as the character has failed to take off since getting this outfit -- I really think it's time to start over. She doesn't have to go back to her previous outfit, but she shouldn't keep this one either.

[Fokken]

Poor Carol and all her ctrl Alt Deletion.

[CraigTheCylon]

I really should give up on this topic because it never resolves anything beyond my apparent need to have less than 10 working fingers (hello, mister wall, my old nemesis, time for another punching session). But, because I am apparently this dumb:

The emphasis on the blue looks terrible. I'd invert the colors, for one. Her original costume had a better color scheme than this one (Although I didn't care for the bikini design on that, and prefer her having pants). Make it red with blue gloves, boots, and shoulders.

Funny thing: we've already seen that outfit, more or less. Yes, it's not on Carol, but colour-wise it's what you're asking for and...it does not look good to me. At all. Very few outfits can handle that much uninterrupted red (and yeah, it's missing a sash or anything to break it up at the hips - like how Mar-Vell's costume had blue 'shorts' drawn there) and the darker blue doesn't work as a highlight for her extremities because it's dark and thus not a highlight. The head, fists and feet should always stand out on action-heavy characters, so darker tones for them are a mistake. This is also why the classic Batman outfit will forever use blue for his cape, cowl, boots and gloves, no matter how many versions of him wear black.

And no, it's not missing the gold bars like you wanted. (I actually thought it did when I went looking for a scan - memory playing tricks on me) I still disagree with this being an issue. Apart from the bars framing the central star calling back to the US Air Force's typical insignia (thus tying the core of Carol's earthly roots with the symbol of her alien connections and bringing her two worlds together, see how good costumes actually mean stuff), without them the star is just...kind of tiny and inconsequential. A problem Mar-Vell's suit suffered from too. Back then they worked around it by either cheating and making the star suddenly huge - which is also why your Superman comparison doesn't work, because his shield already covers most of his chest, unless it's on poor Brandon Routh which is largely why that suit didn't work - or by putting greater emphasis on the nega-bands, which added more yellow/gold to the outfit so the star doesn't look lost. If Carol lost her bars, either the star needs to be made bigger (which I can't see going well, especially since it'd need to become a kind of solid panel over her chest, covering her bosom more completely, and inviting more "ermagerd shes a man" commentary) or she needs some extraneous bling. I am open to suggestions on what kind. Rings? A brooch? Earrings that she can angrily remove before a fight?

[Angrel-San]

The Infinity issue was good. I really liked it and Carol showed some good positive development.

Can't say the same for her in Punisher, LOL!

[mikeb]

The Infinity issue was good. I really liked it and Carol showed some good positive development.

The thing that really surprised me is Zack, that guy from Diversity & Comics on Youtube, even like it.

[VirusChan]

The thing that really surprised me is Zack, that guy from Diversity & Comics on Youtube, even like it.

Well it isn't all that hard to make Diversity & Comics happy. Beautiful Women, lots of action, and proper presentation of human flaws. Which are all things Carol's comic should have in abundance.