Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers) Appreciation - "Higher, Further, Faster, More!"

[Gridde]

I've gotta admit, I'm no Carol fan, but I've been enjoying her in Immortal Hulk. Possibly because she works pretty well as a Heroic Antagonist/Obstructive Bureaucrat.

I love her depiction in Immortal Hulk. Embodies "tough but fair", and is generally quite pragmatic and reasonable to boot.

I get the impression a lot of current writers are under editorial pressure to hype Carol or shoehorn her into things, and her depictions suffer as a result. But when written like this she's awesome (this coming from someone who generally finds her quite annoying in most of her major appearances over recent years).

[Seren]

You should read her in the Ultimates during Civil War II. Al Ewing wrote her the same way, so you could understand (not necessarily agree, but understand) her side more. I love Al Ewing's Carol.

[Fokken]

You should read her in the Ultimates during Civil War II. Al Ewing wrote her the same way, so you could understand (not necessarily agree, but understand) her side more. I love Al Ewing's Carol.

Al Ewing CONTINUALLY manages to scoop up characters who are off the radar, or have image/perception challenges, or aren't popular, and TLC's the fux out of them. He's remarkable. Such a talent.

[Johnrevenge]

You should read her in the Ultimates during Civil War II. Al Ewing wrote her the same way, so you could understand (not necessarily agree, but understand) her side more. I love Al Ewing's Carol.

Yeah, Ewing and Kelly Thompson did a great job depicting Carol during CW2 tie-ins. Bendis should have learned from them how to write characters.

[Distraction]

http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com...vel-prelude-1/

Here's Marvel's Captain Marvel prelude #1 perveiw

[Ichijinijisanji]

http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com...vel-prelude-1/

Here's Marvel's Captain Marvel prelude #1 perveiw

This just looks like the age of ultron comic lol

[Digifiend]

I think most of it is supposed be set between that film and Infinity War. And Carol's not in it, it's a Nick Fury story.

[Mike_Murdock]

For those who have been following along with my posts (which is probably nobody; I'm not that important), I mentioned a while ago that I was reading through a lot of different stories in anticipation of the upcoming Captain Marvel movie. I already read a lot of Mar-Vell stories, including Carol's origin, the Kree/Skrull War, etc. (and I read the Roy Thomas Inhumans stories in Amazing Adventures that went along with it). Now I'm finally getting around to reading the original Ms. Marvel for the first time. I thought I would give some thoughts on the first two issues:

The first issue of Ms. Marvel really wants to paint itself as a feminist comic. It makes me ask a couple questions. Do they get points for trying? If so, do they get points for trying to look like they're trying? If that's the case, do they get lots of points for trying really, really hard to look like they're trying really, really hard. The book is essentially made by a bunch of men, but it goes out of its way to point out that Gerry Conway's wife helped to. It also had Marie Severin on colors when she would have been a great penciller instead (although the men they chose are top of the line with John Buscema and Joe Sinnot).

The transparent pandering to feminism reads almost like a parody. Probably the best example is in this picture:

But we also see references to Gloria Steinem. Issue two's cover has Ms. Marvel tell Scorpion that he's "not man enough to beat Ms. Marvel." The bad guy says she's stronger than "ten men." The tag line in the corner is "this female fights back." Subtle this is not.

I thought the change from making her the security chief of a NASA base to a writer was a step back for progressiveness. That being said, there's two things I like about it. First, the fact that her career was essentially ruined without it being her fault could be a comment on the subconscious sexism she has to deal with. Second, I think the book benefits from being tied in with Spider-Man. Obviously, the character is a big draw and I liked seeing Carol Danvers meeting Mary Jane Watson. I also like AIM as a villain for her. Those beekeepers never cease to amuse me.

I'm pretty sure these two dudes in issue one are dead:

Carol! That kills people!

In issue two, we find out that Ms. Marvel's costume accentuates her natural ability to ride the Earth's electromagnetic field. So it appears she has some flight ability but the costume enhances it. It's worth thinking about in the context of the Life of Captain Marvel retcon. Mar-Vell can't naturally fly. It was said early that Earth's lower gravity let him jump really high, but he used rockets. Later, he flew with the help of his Nega-Bands. Likewise, he did not possess a Seventh Sense like she does (although he later got Cosmic Awareness). IIRC, Min-Erva does have a Seventh Sense. It would fit the idea that her powers are Kree but not inherently Mar-Vell's. Of course, it also fits with the idea that they're just making up shit as they go along.

I'm not a fan of her constant blackouts and two personalities. I hope it comes to an end soon. An interesting thing is the gap in time since Yon-Rogg and her becoming Ms. Marvel. The blackouts do help explain that and issue two explicitly addresses this issue in exactly the way I would have wanted it addressed. My only preference would have been for her to have a few hints of it before the six months rather than springing Ms. Marvel fully formed on that day.

Next up are the Chris Claremont issues. I'm curious to see how things change. Claremont has some flaws as a writer, but I know he prides himself on having strong female characters.

[ed2962]

For those who have been following along with my posts (which is probably nobody; I'm not that important), I mentioned a while ago that I was reading through a lot of different stories in anticipation of the upcoming Captain Marvel movie. I already read a lot of Mar-Vell stories, including Carol's origin, the Kree/Skrull War, etc. (and I read the Roy Thomas Inhumans stories in Amazing Adventures that went along with it). Now I'm finally getting around to reading the original Ms. Marvel for the first time. I thought I would give some thoughts on the first two issues:

The first issue of Ms. Marvel really wants to paint itself as a feminist comic. It makes me ask a couple questions. Do they get points for trying? If so, do they get points for trying to look like they're trying? If that's the case, do they get lots of points for trying really, really hard to look like they're trying really, really hard. The book is essentially made by a bunch of men, but it goes out of its way to point out that Gerry Conway's wife helped to. It also had Marie Severin on colors when she would have been a great penciller instead (although the men they chose are top of the line with John Buscema and Joe Sinnot).

The transparent pandering to feminism reads almost like a parody. Probably the best example is in this picture:

But we also see references to Gloria Steinem. Issue two's cover has Ms. Marvel tell Scorpion that he's "not man enough to beat Ms. Marvel." The bad guy says she's stronger than "ten men." The tag line in the corner is "this female fights back." Subtle this is not.

I thought the change from making her the security chief of a NASA base to a writer was a step back for progressiveness. That being said, there's two things I like about it. First, the fact that her career was essentially ruined without it being her fault could be a comment on the subconscious sexism she has to deal with. Second, I think the book benefits from being tied in with Spider-Man. Obviously, the character is a big draw and I liked seeing Carol Danvers meeting Mary Jane Watson. I also like AIM as a villain for her. Those beekeepers never cease to amuse me.

I'm pretty sure these two dudes in issue one are dead:

Carol! That kills people!

In issue two, we find out that Ms. Marvel's costume accentuates her natural ability to ride the Earth's electromagnetic field. So it appears she has some flight ability but the costume enhances it. It's worth thinking about in the context of the Life of Captain Marvel retcon. Mar-Vell can't naturally fly. It was said early that Earth's lower gravity let him jump really high, but he used rockets. Later, he flew with the help of his Nega-Bands. Likewise, he did not possess a Seventh Sense like she does (although he later got Cosmic Awareness). IIRC, Min-Erva does have a Seventh Sense. It would fit the idea that her powers are Kree but not inherently Mar-Vell's. Of course, it also fits with the idea that they're just making up shit as they go along.

I'm not a fan of her constant blackouts and two personalities. I hope it comes to an end soon. An interesting thing is the gap in time since Yon-Rogg and her becoming Ms. Marvel. The blackouts do help explain that and issue two explicitly addresses this issue in exactly the way I would have wanted it addressed. My only preference would have been for her to have a few hints of it before the six months rather than springing Ms. Marvel fully formed on that day.

Next up are the Chris Claremont issues. I'm curious to see how things change. Claremont has some flaws as a writer, but I know he prides himself on having strong female characters.

It was the 70's so those two thugs from the car are fine.

An interesting rumor is that at the time Conway really really wanted to write a a Spiderman book and his plan was to make Ms Marvel sort of a satellite Spider-title so that's why it's set at the Daily Bugle. But soon after, management approved "Peter Parker Spectacular Spider-Man" and Gerry went there, so it was open for Chris.

[Ascended]

The first issue of Ms. Marvel really wants to paint itself as a feminist comic. It makes me ask a couple questions. Do they get points for trying? If so, do they get points for trying to look like they're trying? If that's the case, do they get lots of points for trying really, really hard to look like they're trying really, really hard. The book is essentially made by a bunch of men, but it goes out of its way to point out that Gerry Conway's wife helped to. It also had Marie Severin on colors when she would have been a great penciller instead (although the men they chose are top of the line with John Buscema and Joe Sinnot).

Yes, they get points for trying (IMO).

This was decades ago. Comics weren't as well written as they are now, the attention to realistic dialogue didn't really exist, and society was much different. If they didn't write that story then, we wouldn't have the stories we have now. That we can sit back today and see the limitations of yesterday.....all that does is tell us that we've changed since then (hopefully for the better). I hope that's always the case.

They definitely get points for trying, and taken with the context of the times they were made, those comics look a whole hell of a lot better.

Now, whether they get points for pointing out that they're trying......that I'm not so sure of. There's marketing and advertising realities to consider of course, and sometimes a statement has to be loud to be heard, but I typically don't like it when someone does the right thing, and then beats you over the head with how they did the right thing. Do it because you should, not for a pat on the back. But again, there's business to take into account, and it might have been smarter to be loud and obvious about this too.

I have no issue with them pointing out that Conway's wife helped though. Considering the "when" of this, I just figure that helps lend an air of authenticity to their work. I don't believe that "only women should write women" or anything, so the all-white-guy creative team isn't a problem for me (especially given the era) but it never hurts to have a viewpoint closer to the material you're writing.

As for her stepping down from NASA being a step backwards for progressiveness....yeah, it is. But then, we're about to see Carol go from running the world's first line of defense against alien threats to being just another superhero in NYC. She's about to go from being one of the most important people alive to being one of dozens doing the same job in a overexposed and overpopulated city. That's a step backwards too. And we all know it's not happening today because Marvel's anti-progressive, it's happening because they're trying to build a workable narrative and they keep dropping the ball with Alpha Flight Station.

[ed2962]

Yes, they get points for trying.

This was decades ago. Comics weren't as well written as they are now, the attention to realistic dialogue didn't really exist, and society was much different. If they didn't write that story then, we wouldn't have the stories we have now. That we can sit back today and see the limitations of yesterday.....all that does is tell us that we've changed since then (hopefully for the better). I hope that's always the case.

They definitely get points for trying, and taken with the context of the times they were made, those comics look a whole hell of a lot better.

Now, whether they get points for pointing out that they're trying......that I'm not so sure of. There's marketing and advertising realities to consider of course, and sometimes a statement has to be loud to be heard, but I typically don't like it when someone does the right thing, and then beats you over the head with how they did the right thing. Do it because you should, not for a pat on the back. But again, there's business to take into account, and it might have been smarter to be loud and obvious about this too.

I have no issue with them pointing out that Conway's wife helped though. Considering the "when" of this, I just figure that helps lend an air of authenticity to their work. I don't believe that "only women should write women" or anything, so the all-white-guy creative team isn't a problem for me (especially given the era) but it never hurts to have a viewpoint closer to the material you're writing.

As for her stepping down from NASA being a step backwards for progressiveness....yeah, it is. But then, we're about to see Carol go from running the world's first line of defense against alien threats to being just another superhero in NYC. She's about to go from being one of the most important people alive to being one of dozens doing the same job in a overexposed and overpopulated city. That's a step backwards too. And we all know it's not happening today because Marvel's anti-progressive, it's happening because they're trying to build a workable narrative and they keep dropping the ball with Alpha Flight Station.

I don't think that they were looking for a pat on the back with this title. It's no secret that they really were trying to control the trademarks ( also Spider Woman and She-Hulk). It's more let's cash in. And Marvel did attempt other female led comics before and after Ms Marvel. It seems like the only ones from this specific era to stick ( although temporarily) were the spin-offs and Red Sonja.

For what it's worth, they actually mocked Women's Lib in Avengers #83.

[Mike_Murdock]

The issue I have is I'm not as convinced they were trying so much as trying to look hard like they were trying. Their excuse for not having a female writer is that there weren't any qualified female writers. That tends to demonstrate a lack of faith in the concept. And why not try to get a female penciler or inker on the book at least?

Anyway, I've read through issue eight, so I thought I'd add some additional thoughts with the start of Chris Claremont:

When Claremont takes over, it's immediately noticeable that Carol's voice feels more like her voice. In a way, this is probably a bit unfair. To me, Carol's voice is the voice Claremont defined and it's hard to say if this is a product of him picking the right voice for the character or just that it's the voice he wrote with.

The issue where Carol is taken out of her costume, tied up, and subjected to mind control is filled with almost all the problematic Claremont tendencies. Luckily, it's not dwelled on for any long period of time. I like her fighting AIM. They have interesting values. Plus, they've already figured out her secret identity, which could be a problem.

Claremont has already expanded her supporting cast, including people who you might recognize such as Tracy Burke.

The split personality thing has softened but hasn't gone away. They're both aware of each other but have distinct personalities. It actually reminds me of the time Rogue had Carol's personality inside her. We also see that she no longer needs her costume to fly, etc. For those trying to reconcile with the retcon: The explanation is a second exposure to the Psyche-Magnetron's power caused it, but that's Carol's speculation. It's entirely possible it was her own abilities coming through. Either way, it's clear that the Psyche-Magnetron did something since her Kree persona has either Mar-Vell's memories or the memories of a fictional person.

On the other hand, she keeps getting visions of the future (a la Ulysses) and that causes her to have headaches or even pass out. Arguably, the visions are her defining feature at this point and help propel the plot, but it also makes her seem frail and helpless. She doesn't have to be Superwoman, but it's not a great look for her. I wonder if they're going for a "Puny Peter Parker" vibe where she can't show how strong she is without giving away her secret identity, but Spider-Man at least fakes weakness out of a deliberate choice. Also, that scarf has to go since virtually every bad guy grabs it and throws her by it.

[Ascended]

The issue I have is I'm not as convinced they were trying so much as trying to look hard like they were trying. Their excuse for not having a female writer is that there weren't any qualified female writers. That tends to demonstrate a lack of faith in the concept. And why not try to get a female penciler or inker on the book at least?

I figure the only "excuse" they need is that it was the 70's. >shrug<

Conway's wife, the female colorist, the popular artist (he was popular then right?)......I wasn't alive in the 70's but I'm pretty sure that *was* considered trying hard at the time.

[Ascended]

For what it's worth, they actually mocked Women's Lib in Avengers #83.

Really? Damn. Dare I ask what happened?

[LordUltimus]

Really? Damn. Dare I ask what happened?

It actually wasn't THAT bad though, it even ends with a tease that they might come back (which only happened when Red Hulk became a thing, so... yeah).