All-Star and Superman Unchained

[Ascended]

It always disturbs me that we can't point to more pre-Crisis books for Superman that aren't just anthologies or chronicles--other than the Alan Moore book.

Well, a lot of older Superman stories after the 40's just dont age well. I love the cosmic explorer, super scientist concepts of the Silver Age but the stories themselves are often too weird or bland or just too dated for my personal tastes. And it seems that a lot of the best moments happen in other books; Jimmy Olsen or Lois Lane.

Then we come to the Bronze Age, and that's where we start to reference Moore, who overshadows everyone, and then we're into post-Crisis.

You know the history pretty well, what would *you* recommend? What nuggets are hidden in the mass of the Silver Age that are hard to find and dig out?

[Jim Kelly]

It seems to me in the little bit that Moore wrote about the actual Superman--and what he later put in Supreme and other works--it almost entirely derives from the Weisinger Era Superman (the King Supreme of the Superman world). Likewise, the better part of Morrison's ALL STAR SUPERMAN derives from the same period, with some addded bits of later continuity.

Someone should do an annotation of these works with references for all the panels. I remember in the Busiek/Perez AVENGERS, they used the text page to cite all the references in each issue's story. And Busiek did a similar thing in THE POWER COMPANY with the help of "Mikishawm"--I think the text page was eliminated later on in the POWER COMPANY comic and Mikishawm did the references on the DCMB forum for the book after that.

I don't know what Johns Wells aka Mikishawm is up to these days, but I know that he kept files on just about every bit of DC continuity (he even shared some of that info with me when I was researching Ralph Dibny). So it's probably a good bet that he's already researched those books and has extensives files on them.

It seems to me that ALL STAR in particular is dense with references. Maybe one day when I go back to read it, I'll try to take note of them--but I think there are a lot I personally would miss.

There are plenty of anthologies that cherry pick some of these stories. But it seems kind of harsh to tell somone to buy all of them, just for sake of one or two stories in each TPB. What the ALL STAR SUPERMAN needs is a companion book that collects the stories most directly relevant to Morrison's series.

To even start to list all the great Superman stories from 1938 - 1985 would be a daunting task.

One advantage that the old school stories have over the later work is that they're usually 26 pages or less--some are only 6 or 8 pages. It's hardly a challenge to read them like it is with modern extended story arcs that can stretch out to 200 or 300 pages in length. Now, those really are too much work for me.

[Sacred Knight]

Compared to All-Star its trash. Standing on its own...everything's below average except the art, which ranges from average to good by the run's end.

I'm not opposed to Snyder getting another crack at Superman down the line, but this clearly wasn't the right time. He whiffed pretty majorly.

[Grim Ghost]

This is a response to Ascended's question about good pre-crisis Superman stuff that is neglected, though I am giving a bronze age suggestion rather than silver age.

I would highly suggest that any of you are are interested in checking out some fun bronze age pre-crisis Superman stories look into DC Comics Presents. It's basically Brave and the Bold with Superman. Lots of fun team ups and I generally find the stories to be better than Superman's core books at the time. Fun fast paced done in one stories. And there doesn't seem to be a lot of demand for them, I have collected most of the series for one or two bucks an issue.

[Blacksun]

Unchained and All-Star are completely different; they set out to do very different things. Unchained tries to prove things through its story; it tries to show Superman as awesome and amplifies the aspects that people want see (action, Lois, altruism, etc...). All-Star tries to define that character; it assumes you know nothing and gives you everything you need about that franchise. There's nothing particularly special about Unchained but it is good. All-Star is a classic.

The books had different intentions, Unchained was still a new 52 book so snyder had to deal with limitations.

Thanks, Yeah, I'm actually just beginning to read comics for the first time in my life. I'm a big movie and video game fan, so I'm not totally lost when it comes to the characters backstory and so on. My taste in comics is a bit narrow when it comes to the art style. I like the newer stuff better. I'm a big fan of the more liberal use of framing the drawings. I think McKeen's work on Arkham is breathtaking. Capullo's Batman stuff is also great.

if you like superman movies and TV shows Unchained is pretty great as introduction.

i don't think unchained is a classic or something like this, but it is a really good superman book. Since new 52 started this was the best superman story I read, and majority of my frinds only bought unchained.

I think snyder write lois better than superman, he usually write female character much better than male. It's not a bad thing, if he write superman well and do not make him look bad to lois look good. Nothing of this happened on unchained. Also superman has many books to be well written, Lois is pushed adide so much these days that she deserves a unchained to bright.

[Sacred Knight]

There's no indication of that. In fact pretty much everyone agrees it essentially felt like a post-Crisis book, and Snyder didn't follow anything really from the New 52 continuity outside of the costumes. Thus every very indication he had the green light to do exactly what he wanted to do. He even got his Superman/Lois moments in there. That the story fell majorly flat isn't continuity's fault when continuity played pretty much no role.

[Blacksun]

There's no indication of that. In fact pretty much everyone agrees it essentially felt like a post-Crisis book, and Snyder didn't follow anything really from the New 52 continuity outside of the costumes. Thus every very indication he had the green light to do exactly what he wanted to do. He even got his Superman/Lois moments in there. That the story fell majorly flat isn't continuity's fault when continuity played pretty much no role.

But he had to adapt to the status quo: clark out of daily planet and no dating for lois and clark/superman. no doubt the new 52 continuity chained Snyder.

[Sacred Knight]

Neither thing affecting the story one bit. How can one be chained by something that has nothing to do with the story? The Lois and Clark dynamic came into play but he was able to make do just fine without anything explicitly romantic. Whether one was a fan of the book or not a fan of the book, its silly to act like the New 52 status quo impacted it in any significantly negative way. It was a complete non-issue within the confines of the tale he told; this is just ripping on the New 52 for the sake of ripping on it.

[Blacksun]

New 52 has nothing really great about it, Snyder was right into "ripping" it.
But he didn't had the same freedom that Morrison had with all star. If it was outside new 52, it could have been a complete tale. Snyder wanted unchained to have more issues, but whatever lee is slow.
I don't think it was significative, but it had some importance.

[rhymeswithparc]

The books had different intentions, Unchained was still a new 52 book so snyder had to deal with limitations.

I disagree. Johns is telling a much better Superman story and he's keeping in continuity; I hear Pak's doing good too but I haven't started reading those yet. I do agree that All-Star and this had different intentions, though.

[DochaDocha]

Just my opinion, but reading All-Star and Unchained mentioned in the same sentence for something other than both being Superman stories either makes me want to laugh, or want to cry.

[Blacksun]

I disagree. Johns is telling a much better Superman story and he's keeping in continuity; I hear Pak's doing good too but I haven't started reading those yet. I do agree that All-Star and this had different intentions, though.

johns has a ongoing going for him, snyder had 9 issues without a follow up. I thought I would like johns more, but I'm still prefer snyder. But like i said he has more issues to show a good work

[Sacred Knight]

I disagree. Johns is telling a much better Superman story and he's keeping in continuity; I hear Pak's doing good too but I haven't started reading those yet. I do agree that All-Star and this had different intentions, though.

Pak's writing the best Superman since Morrison, give it a go if you can.

[Xerophthalmia]

Alot of information to think about. Thanks for all the replies. :-)

[brucekent12]

Unchained was Snyder's attempt to write a classic Superman story. I enjoyed the overall story, thought he did a decent job writing Superman, but thought Snyder really shone writing Lois. His interpretation of her is certainly (IMO) the best written Lois Lane since the start of the New52 3 years ago.