What do you think would change Peter's mind about killing?

[electr1cgoblin]

It is never responsible or morally justified to appoint yourself judge, jury and executioner, especially when you have much greater power than the average citizen or justice system representative. The issue isn't that Peter doesn't kill enough, it's that other "heroes" kill too much.

it's a pretty sad reflection on the state of comic fans when they are hoping for their heroes to be more lethal.

*applause*

[Agent Z]

Bear in mind that the Punisher is cancelled ALOT, where as Spider-Man has been continually published since the 60's. (Excluding that brief period in the 90's where the book was retitled Scarlet Spider.) I'd argue that the villains of most popular comics are almost as popular as the heroes themselves. I am not a Batman fan, but even I find myself flipping through the issue on the stands when the Joker is featured on the cover, because he is a fascinating and visually interesting character.) Punisher doesn't have really any reoccurring baddies except Jigsaw. With Spider-Man readers are always going to be excited for a rematch with Doc Ock or the Green Goblin.

And by your own logic any new characters that would be created because the all new "take no prisoners" Spider-Man killed the old ones would also have to be destroyed. With that mindset it'd make no sense for him to let the new ones live after their first battle, so they would never get the development necessary to make them as interesting as the previous rogues.

Also, considering that not only is the book cancelled a lot, but all the Punisher films have been absolute box office and critical flops, I wouldn't treat the writers who "manage it" as somehow more successful than the people who write Spider-Man. The Punisher is basically a Friday the 13th film, a lot of people getting killed in gory or over the top ways with very little substance.

The Punisher's mostly only really been compelling (and lasted long) in a MAX universe when he guns down literally hundreds of nameless thugs with no other characterisation than 'criminal' - under Ennis even the biggest and baddest of villains (Rawlins, the Russian General, Nicky Cavella and Barracuda) only appeared in AT THE VERY MOST two arcs before being killed. Pretty much every other villain was dead by the end of the same arc they were introduced. Spider-Man appears much more regularly, going through the same amount of villains at the same speed would challenge any writer to keep it compelling - Punisher works because Ennis makes it very clear Castle is no hero, and barely a functional human being. Spider-Man is and always will be a true hero, the approach MUST be different.

I think there are some ways to work around this. One option is that Peter only uses lethal force on the villains who are to psychopathic to be contained or redeemed. This also allows the writers to portray them as more three-dimensional. Another way is to make it so that it is very, very difficult to kill the villain i.e he's not always on the scene, he has bodyguards, he has a power to heal (Peter could work on a way to negate it), he has a good public persona etc.

[electr1cgoblin]

None of Peter's foes(the ones like electro and carnage) are capable of being caught safely and are too dangerous to be alive and incarcerated by the government. Parker is just stacking up un nessassary bodies of innocent lives indirect by not stopping his foes permanently.

That's your opinion. Who is supposed to decide who is "capable of being caught safely" and who isn't in the Marvel U? Just Spiderman? Just superheroes? Can cops decide this, too? How about ordinary citizens; should they have ANY say in this?

You're venturing down a very slippery slope into fascism, I think. I like the Punisher and Wolverine, etc, but I have to realize that in the real world they couldn't do what they do. They are escapist wish fulfillment fantasies, they can't be role models for the way things should be. And making every single hero capable of killing seems to water down their individual personalities, to the point where every comic you are reading is basically a version of the Punisher.

The struggle that Peter and the few others like him in the Marvel U that don't kill is extremely satisfying dramatically and creates much more inner tension than the guy who has no problem walking up and killing the bad guy. It's also, hopefully, reflective of our own struggles to resist violence (especially extreme violence) whenever we can.

[cyberhubbs]

It should be kept in mind that Spidey at the end of the day is a vigilante. He's already taking the law into his own hands, with good reason. It's nice that he sets limits and all, but ya know...

[Agent Z]

That's your opinion. Who is supposed to decide who is "capable of being caught safely" and who isn't in the Marvel U? Just Spiderman? Just superheroes? Can cops decide this, too? How about ordinary citizens; should they have ANY say in this?

You're venturing down a very slippery slope into fascism, I think. I like the Punisher and Wolverine, etc, but I have to realize that in the real world they couldn't do what they do. They are escapist wish fulfillment fantasies, they can't be role models for the way things should be. And making every single hero capable of killing seems to water down their individual personalities, to the point where every comic you are reading is basically a version of the Punisher.

The struggle that Peter and the few others like him in the Marvel U that don't kill is extremely satisfying dramatically and creates much more inner tension than the guy who has no problem walking up and killing the bad guy. It's also, hopefully, reflective of our own struggles to resist violence (especially extreme violence) whenever we can.

I've seen comics from both of the Big Two about how the heroes aren't doing anyone any favors by letting murderous sociopaths kill without any real consequences (going to prison isn't even much of a punishment given how often these guys escape). If someone like Carnage existed in the real world and no prison could hold him, would be able to sleep at night knowing he was alive and no one was willing to kill him?

[electr1cgoblin]

I've seen comics from both of the Big Two about how the heroes aren't doing anyone any favors by letting murderous sociopaths kill without any real consequences (going to prison isn't even much of a punishment given how often these guys escape). If someone like Carnage existed in the real world and no prison could hold him, would be able to sleep at night knowing he was alive and no one was willing to kill him?

Who's going to decide 'no prison can hold him' and that he should be killed? Who do you trust to responsibly use the ultimate power, life and death? Because you better choose wisely, or you will have a star chamber on your hands. And then if you are willing to give over THIS power to them, what other powers are you willing to give over?

[Vegeta]

(going to prison isn't even much of a punishment given how often these guys escape).

"Death" isn't even much of a punishment either, given how often it is retconned that they either survived or are resurrected by something or someone.

If someone like Carnage existed in the real world and no prison could hold him, would be able to sleep at night knowing he was alive and no one was willing to kill him?

Sentry already killed Carnage once, and his symbiote was devoured by Venom prior to that. Guy has a starring role in Axis right now and his own mini-series, killing him clearly resolved nothing.

Plus, in the "real world" there wouldn't be nearly as many prison breaks and more than likely he'd be executed by the state. (I'm pretty sure the death penalty would be A LOT more popular in a world where people can create earthquakes with their mind, or shoot flames out of there fingers, etc.)

[stingnewell]

Why the obsession to make Spider-Man's character an anti hero if you hate his non killing code don't read it than. Just read from the plethora of other anti heroes from Punisher, Wolverines, Judge Dredd, Garth Ennis in general, and so on. Stop demanding other heroes follow suit like the anti heroes.

[Mister Mets]

In order for Peter Parker to kill, there would have to be a situation where his code of honor fails spectacularly.

I don't know where you go from there. It could be interesting to have a hero determining when it's appropriate to take the law into his own hands in so permanent a fashion, but I don't think it should be done with Spider-Man.