Ra's Al Ghul vs Ra's Al Ghul

[big_adventure]

So, while I still think that Arrow Ra's hands Nolan Ra's his ass, do we count some level of PIS for Ollie in his (not) last fight, considering he showed he could handle sticks, knives and the like, or just bad choregraphy?

Hard call. It's really clear what they were going for - Ra's is better and quicker than Ollie.

However, what they showed is Ra's being better and quicker than an Ollie after a three-day heroin bender who has forgotten how to fight with anything at all. And the next episode could change everything - it could be that Ollie planned everything because... reasons?

I mean, why not bomb the top of the spire? There were only the three of them: Nyssa, Ra's and Seraph - just poke your head up, flip up, and launch a couple of flash-bangs. Ra's was at the edge of the drop - he goes over, and the League can sift through the debris at the base of the cliff and try to reassemble the pieces. Ra's dying would still be Ra's dying - if only Ollie survives, he's the only one who can tell the tale.

[Pendaran]

I cannot overstate how much more regularly I would watch Arrow if it was the adventures of

Ollie after a three-day heroin bender who has forgotten how to fight with anything at all.

Like some kind of Trainspotting/Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas glorious vaguely superhero who is otherwise taking almost all his cues from Batman mess.

And being fair, Ollie whacked on smack doesn't take away from the Ra's total incap neck strike move.

I suppose there's always viewing Ra's takedown of all those goons.

[FrenchGemini]

Now that I think about it, maybe there were stairs that Ra's and the others took, while they told Ollie he had to climb, so that he would be tired and be somewhat out of it mentally... I am not even convinced of it myself.

As for the hold, I just rewatched the thing. While the hold might not have been the most efficient (heck, were I Ollie, I would have gone for a more secure neck snap), to me he tried to keep holding Ra's, and the latter escaped. YMMV

[Cody]

One of those guys handed his ass to Arrow Ollie, who defeats BatBale in any non prep circumstances in a Rumble. The other is Nolanverse Ra's ,who is more or less at BatBale's level.

Not really. When the two fought Batbale had a bit of a jump on him iirc, while Ra has a sword in a confined space. Once he got rid of the sword and stopped grappling, and they stood face to face, hand to hand, BatBale was utterly schooled.



@1:18. Bats didn't really stand much of a chance.

Then there is the difference between Arrow and Batman. One has trained longer and by the league of assassins, while the other only trained for 5 years before becoming Arrow.

Pretty sure this isn't going to be a stomp.

[MichaelC]

So, while I still think that Arrow Ra's hands Nolan Ra's his ass, do we count some level of PIS for Ollie in his (not) last fight, considering he showed he could handle sticks, knives and the like, or just bad choregraphy?

Thing is, if you play that game you pretty much have to dismiss 99% of comic/TV/movie martial arts fights, as they are very, very rarely realistic, and involve lots of moves that would get you clobbered in a real fight. I just accept what was portrayed at face-value: Ra's completely dwarfs the skill of a character who is himself portrayed as a virtual one-man-army.

[big_adventure]

Thing is, if you play that game you pretty much have to dismiss 99% of comic/TV/movie martial arts fights, as they are very, very rarely realistic, and involve lots of moves that would get you clobbered in a real fight. I just accept what was portrayed at face-value: Ra's completely dwarfs the skill of a character who is himself portrayed as a virtual one-man-army.

That's pretty much how I am looking at it, minus a thing or two:

Caveat 1: given how easily Ollie went down, it's entirely possible that there is some stupid plan that required him to do that. We'll find out next episode, I guess.

Caveat 2: Ollie was fighting with something less than his best weapon, without stealth, without ranged attacks and without tech, against the only form of combat we've seen Ra's train in - killing dude with sword. This doesn't make Ollie remotely better than Ra's, but it mitigates the domination a tad.

[Captain Morgan]

Not really. When the two fought Batbale had a bit of a jump on him iirc, while Ra has a sword in a confined space. Once he got rid of the sword and stopped grappling, and they stood face to face, hand to hand, BatBale was utterly schooled.



@1:18. Bats didn't really stand much of a chance.

Then there is the difference between Arrow and Batman. One has trained longer and by the league of assassins, while the other only trained for 5 years before becoming Arrow.

Pretty sure this isn't going to be a stomp.

Setting aside comparing the actual feats between Bruce and Ollie, what are you basing your assessment that Bruce trained longer on? Yeah, Bruce was gone a long time. We've actually seen way more explicit training for Ollie though.

[Cody]

Setting aside comparing the actual feats between Bruce and Ollie, what are you basing your assessment that Bruce trained longer on? Yeah, Bruce was gone a long time. We've actually seen way more explicit training for Ollie though.

And just what do you think he was doing all that time he had been gone for?

[butterfingers158]

And just what do you think he was doing all that time he had been gone for?

Working with a speech therapist to perfect his gravel voice

[Saitou Hajime]

Then there is the difference between Arrow and Batman. One has trained longer and by the league of assassins, while the other only trained for 5 years before becoming Arrow.

Bruce was only gone for 7 years, and most of that time was devoted to his travels around the world.

[big_adventure]

Bruce was only gone for 7 years, and most of that time was devoted to his travels around the world.

And devoted to being in prison - can't forget that.

[Basara]

Oh dear lord, that is some awful work.

*weeps*

The scary thing is, even as bad as this duel was, Ollie still looked far more competant than Korra in her recent duel against Kuvira on Legend of Korra.

I put it down to limited special effects budget. Comic characters can do this because they can instantly jump 7 feet in the air while twisting their bodies like contortionists, allowing superior skill to be a factor.

Which is one of the inexplicable things about the Korra/Kuvira fight. In animation, people can leap 20 feet in the air, so when you have a lame duel where the main character acts like a total moron to try and make the villain seem legitimate, the fans are going to scream 'foul', which they did. At least in this show, they have an excuse in that they have to work within actual human limitations. I can accept a duel on these lines. An animated fight should never look this bad though.

[Captain Morgan]

Bruce was only gone for 7 years, and most of that time was devoted to his travels around the world.

Yeah. I mean, it's clear that Bruce learned how to fight somewhere in those travels, but the League was the only explicit training we saw for him, and it wasn't that long. Ollie spent at least 2 years on an island where everything was pretty much trying to kill him, getting trained by various different badass warrior types. Then he got recruited and trained by a CIA equivalent. And then he put in some time with the Russian mob... We haven't seen him train with the League itself, but we have seen him stack up just fine against it's members.

This is setting aside that what actually matters here is feats, and Ollie wins out there anyway.

[big_adventure]

Yeah. I mean, it's clear that Bruce learned how to fight somewhere in those travels, but the League was the only explicit training we saw for him, and it wasn't that long. Ollie spent at least 2 years on an island where everything was pretty much trying to kill him, getting trained by various different badass warrior types. Then he got recruited and trained by a CIA equivalent. And then he put in some time with the Russian mob... We haven't seen him train with the League itself, but we have seen him stack up just fine against it's members.

This is setting aside that what actually matters here is feats, and Ollie wins out there anyway.

On top of that, Ollie has been Arrow for a couple of years now, and has both acted as Arrow and constantly trained (with a bunch on-screen) during that entire time.

[moonknight11]

The scary thing is, even as bad as this duel was, Ollie still looked far more competant than Korra in her recent duel against Kuvira on Legend of Korra.

Korra had a reason for not being a good fighter tho.

Which is one of the inexplicable things about the Korra/Kuvira fight. In animation, people can leap 20 feet in the air, so when you have a lame duel where the main character acts like a total moron to try and make the villain seem legitimate, the fans are going to scream 'foul', which they did. At least in this show, they have an excuse in that they have to work within actual human limitations. I can accept a duel on these lines. An animated fight should never look this bad though.

The Korra/Kuvira fight wasn't badly choreographed. It was just an example of a faster more skilled fighter schooling someone who was nowhere near her peak. i mean previously Korra got clowned on by random bender thugs, and lost to another earthbender as well. There was no way she could match or even threaten one of the finest Metal Benders around.