Wonder Woman #37 Preview

[Darius]

You have argued in other posts that this wasn't a hard reboot, so it seems you are contradicting yourself when you suggest it's a whole new continuity. If you are indeed stating it is a whole new continuity and hence, hard reboot, I would agree with your thinking in that Azz started fresh on this new run of Wonder Woman. Otherwise, based on statements you have made earlier, all Azz has done is continued the adventures that Perez started, which would mean Azz's take and start up should be given the same amount of weight as the Finches.

Where, in this post, did I say it had anything to do with a hard reboot? I said his story was easier to pick up because he started at an issue #1 in a new DC continuity. He could have made her a flying purple people eater if he had chosen. The point is he had a fresh start handed to him, what he chose to do with it has nothing to do with this thread. The Finches and many others have picked up midstream from what Azzarello, Johns and Soule began. As in they picked up from his current timeline, with events he created in her immediate past, dealing with the SM relationship etc ...

[wagthedog]

Where, in this post, did I say it had anything to do with a hard reboot? I said his story was easier to pick up because he started at an issue #1 in a new DC continuity. He could have made her a flying purple people eater if he had chosen. The point is he had a fresh start handed to him, what he chose to do with it has nothing to do with this thread. The Finches and many others have picked up midstream from what Azzarello, Johns and Soule began. As in they picked up from his current timeline, with events he created in her immediate past, dealing with the SM relationship etc ...

I am arguing with you with the terms you wrote, 'new continuity'. Wouldn't that refer to a hard reboot which would also imply a fresh start. I agree with you, it is a fresh start, but you have argued with me in other posts that this isn't a hard reboot, just a continuation of the Perez run. I am just pointing out that this would be inconsistent with your phrasing that this is a new continuity.

I have no problem calling this a new continuity or hard reboot. It is many others on this board that continue to insist on it somehow being a soft reboot or continuation of the previous runs which makes no logical sense. The major offense is not people somehow believing this is a continuation of the Perez run, more that Azz somehow implied it was a soft reboot of the Perez run.

Also, if this is a continuation of the Perez run like others have said, then Azz started in mid story just as apparently the Finches have done. Sounds more like an apples to apples comparison, even though Azz got the benefit of an issue #1 start.

[Silvanus]

Epics don't have to necessarily move slow.

I'm not saying they have to, but most traditional epics aren't what anyone would describe as "concise and to the point." I'm just talking about literary conventions.

Here's a list of epic conventions:

http://english.tjc.edu/greekromanepic/conventions.htm

To sum up those conventions, I'll just say that an epic is traditionally told in long form, and the basic story is amplified with epic digressions, long speeches, epic catalogues (lists of all the ships at Troy, for example), and other stuff that isn't essential to the main plot and tends to slow down the pace. So, traditionally, epics do "move slowly."

I think you are trying to defend Azz's slowness with it being epic in your mind so that it doesn't matter.

No, the slowness still matters, whether it's epic or not; if I didn't enjoy the pace, I wouldn't have started enjoying it just because it was epic. And I'm not trying to make you feel that you're wrong not to like the slowness; so what if it is epic? To tell the truth, I didn't enjoy the Aeneid all that much, as a whole, and that's an actual epic. Rather than liking Azz's slowness because it was epic, I liked it because it built up suspense for me (not for everyone, I realize--we may not even define suspense the same way, but it certainly kept me up in the air for a long time on many points that I was interested in speculating about), and I enjoyed the unexpected digressions (truffles and all that).

Sometimes, Silvanus, you don't have to always defend Azz's run on every counterpoint when you feel one of us is slighting his run in any way. I don't think Azz's run was great, nor was it very good, but it did get me in fact to quit the comic business. His epic slowness was the final blow for me. But, not everything in his run was bad.

"Slight" away. I'm just saying what I think, not bashing what you think. I agree with you that it was slow; I just happened to enjoy the slowness.

But the main point of my previous post was that the overall slow pace is really a separate issue from the difference between the first issues of the two runs. In Azz's first issue, there were two threads that came together in the end; in the Finches, there were a bunch of threads and they didn't converge. Different readers may prefer either one of these models over the other; some people may like the second because they find it provides more variety. I like the first because it provides me with more of a sense of purpose and focus.

[wagthedog]

I'm not saying they have to, but most traditional epics aren't what anyone would describe as "concise and to the point." I'm just talking about literary conventions.

Here's a list of epic conventions:

http://english.tjc.edu/greekromanepic/conventions.htm

To sum up those conventions, I'll just say that an epic is traditionally told in long form, and the basic story is amplified with epic digressions, long speeches, epic catalogues (lists of all the ships at Troy, for example), and other stuff that isn't essential to the main plot and tends to slow down the pace. So, traditionally, epics do "move slowly."



No, the slowness still matters, whether it's epic or not; if I didn't enjoy the pace, I wouldn't have started enjoying it just because it was epic. And I'm not trying to make you feel that you're wrong not to like the slowness; so what if it is epic? To tell the truth, I didn't enjoy the Aeneid all that much, as a whole, and that's an actual epic. Rather than liking Azz's slowness because it was epic, I liked it because it built up suspense for me (not for everyone, I realize--we may not even define suspense the same way, but it certainly kept me up in the air for a long time on many points that I was interested in speculating about), and I enjoyed the unexpected digressions (truffles and all that).



"Slight" away. I'm just saying what I think, not bashing what you think. I agree with you that it was slow; I just happened to enjoy the slowness.

But the main point of my previous post was that the overall slow pace is really a separate issue from the difference between the first issues of the two runs. In Azz's first issue, there were two threads that came together in the end; in the Finches, there were a bunch of threads and they didn't converge. Different readers may prefer either one of these models over the other; some people may like the second because they find it provides more variety. I like the first because it provides me with more of a sense of purpose and focus.

I'm not sure I would qualify Azz's story as epic. In terms of it being a very drawn out arc, it was epically slow, but not an epic, if you know what I am getting at. The Zeke Mcguffin seem to be played out quite a few issues in, upon his birth. Our finding out he was Zeus was hardly surprising as most of us had already figured that one out early on. Her fights with the First Born were getting a bored feel from me. How many times can they fight each other, and how many times does Wonder Woman need help? And I know you will counter my argument, but couldn't this series/arc have been told better and at a faster pace in 2/3 of the issues that he spent on this arc?

[evangelionofasgard]

I have spoilers for tomorrow issue, I'm kind of happy somehow but sad about how they are doing it. Too much cheesecake. I think the book will keep selling well because of this gimmick

cheesecake is not gimmick it is a valid and offen beloved visual element.
And the spoiler does not have a back broke pose nor is drawn too young which is a risk with the finches so it is illustratively unflawed ether.

[Silvanus]

I'm not sure I would qualify Azz's story as epic. In terms of it being a very drawn out arc, it was epically slow, but not an epic, if you know what I am getting at. [

I guess some people, when they say epic, just mean "really great story"; is that what you're getting at? I mean "epic" as in the specific genre--something like what's described on that page about epic conventions I linked to. Even by that definition, I don't know that it's "really" an epic--and I don't know if any comic really is-- but it does approximate some of the qualities of that genre in a "comic book" way.

And I know you will counter my argument, but couldn't this series/arc have been told better and at a faster pace in 2/3 of the issues that he spent on this arc?

"At a faster pace"? Sure. "Better"? That's subjective. If they'd sped it up, they probably would have lost a lot of what I liked about; I mean, the plot didn't absolutely need a truffle hunt, a fictional version of a real-life schizophrenic rocker, or Wonder Woman wrestling a bear in Siberia, but I enjoyed the hell out of those parts anyway. I'm not saying that I was never impatient, or that there weren't parts I might have suggested tightening up if I were the editor; there were, but overall, I enjoyed the pace as it was.

[Silvanus]

people love to blame on Azz what other writers do wrong, but in this case it's all on finches. The way things are I think people won't even be that mad at the finches, just because of personal motivations

Now that I've seen it, I tend to agree with you--I think people who have tended to be critical of New 52 stuff in relation to Wonder Woman will probably mostly like this. If people do get mad, it probably won't be because of cheesecake, but because of by what characters and for what purpose it is done, and because they will see it as tainted by the New 52 version of the Amazons. I'm curious whether it will turn out to be related to something Azz did in his last couple of months--but I'd better wait and talk about that tomorrow.

[Sacred Knight]

I'm more than sure some people will be upset, but personally I feel there's absolutely no reason to be. Lots of directions to go here, with in my opinion the high likelihood it won't be grim.

[Dr. Poison]

I've seen the spoiler and I'm not upset about it in the least bit. Azzarello and Chiang's Diana was nude in Wonder Woman #1 so anyone who was ok with that should be fine with this as well.

[Darius]

I've seen the spoiler and I'm not upset about it in the least bit. Azzarello and Chiang's Diana was nude in Wonder Woman #1 so anyone who was ok with that should be fine with this as well.

I've seen it too ... it's nothing particularly graphic or gratuitous

[Blacksun]

I've seen the spoiler and I'm not upset about it in the least bit. Azzarello and Chiang's Diana was nude in Wonder Woman #1 so anyone who was ok with that should be fine with this as well.

Chiang covered much more, here is pretty gratuitous. it leaves much less to imagination, it's a thing that I hope to find in a cheesecake book like vampirella

I'm more than sure some people will be upset, but personally I feel there's absolutely no reason to be. Lots of directions to go here, with in my opinion the high likelihood it won't be grim.

I think there is many reasons to be. new 52 attacks again

Now that I've seen it, I tend to agree with you--I think people who have tended to be critical of New 52 stuff in relation to Wonder Woman will probably mostly like this. If people do get mad, it probably won't be because of cheesecake, but because of by what characters and for what purpose it is done, and because they will see it as tainted by the New 52 version of the Amazons. I'm curious whether it will turn out to be related to something Azz did in his last couple of months--but I'd better wait and talk about that tomorrow.

cheesecake is just the icing on the cake, only one person on my timeline didn't cared for it, the rest really hated.

[Darius]

Chiang covered much more, here is pretty gratuitous. it leaves much less to imagination, it's a thing that I hope to find in a cheesecake book like vampirella



I think there is many reasons to be

I think that's a little unfair. At least there is reason for the nudity ... the scene would seem very weird if she was fully clothed.

[Gaelforce]

Last warning.

This is about the preview. This is NOT about Azzarello and Chiang's run nor about the hard versus soft reboot matter.

This also is not about any spoiler that is NOT a part of the preview. Start another thread if that's the case. This thread is solely for the purpose of discussing the pages linked in the OP.

[Blacksun]

I think that's a little unfair. At least there is reason for the nudity ... the scene would seem very weird if she was fully clothed.

reason, but there is ways that do not show so much. star lord was naked in many pages of guardians but nobody claimed cheesecake, because of the way the penciller choosed to draw him.

I posted after I saw the Mod warning,

[Sacred Knight]

Understood.