Le Diable Blanc: Gambit Appreciation

[remydat]

...again bro, we arent talking about the same thing. There's no point to continue this because its obviously getting lost over text. I'll say this again, I'm not arguing whether they are together or not (because they arent),but the way writers have failed in relaying a true friendship through their interactions in the books sans the presence of romance. That's it. Not saying they aren't capable of it. I'm saying it hasnt been done. The Bishop kiss was your point, not mine. And yeah I'd have a problem with my wife kissing my friend in any situation... but that wasn't my point. Two wrongs don't make a right, nor does one erase the other. If your girlfriend or boyfriend does something to you, and you do it back, it doesnt make you guys even. What truly matters in the situation is intent, whether it's fun, lust or just plain ol' revenge, thats what counts. If you're happy with how they've been portrayed thus far outside of the realm of "Romy" then fine. I'm standing on the opinion that they have never been represented in such a way and I doubt they will ever be because its 90% or more of their appeal when they are together. Direct fix (UA#5 cover) or nostalgia (Gambit solo appearances).

And I am saying there is no romance because sexual tension does not equal romance. You asked me if they are platonic and I provided you with the definition of platonic. If I have feelings for someone that doesn't mean we are in a romance and it doesn't mean we are not platonic. I can't have a romance with someone if they don't reciprocate and Rogue and Gambit have not reciprocated the feelings they have for each other in any way that constitutes a romance. So all we have is sexual tension between former lovers who are now friends. You are mixing up terms IMO. Romance is entirely different than sexual tension.

And you can't claim something is wrong regarding the Storm and Bishop scenes because it's not your relationship. If Gambit and Rogue are comfortable with each other kissing other people then it's not wrong. If Claremont intended for either kiss to be seen as some betrayal, he would have written a scene to that effect. He did not. In the Rogue scene in particular, everyone present knows she is with Gambit and yet not a single person said anything to Rogue about it so the logical conclusion is that they understand that Rogue/Gambit sharing a kiss with a friend is apparently not an issue between them. So my impression is while there is no way in hell I would be fine with it that between Gambit and Rogue that is the nature of their relationship at that time. Just like I ain't into swinging but who am I to tell another couple that them doing so is wrong. That's their deal not mine.

[donpricetag]

And you can't claim something is wrong regarding the Storm and Bishop scenes because it's not your relationship. If Gambit and Rogue are comfortable with each other kissing other people then it's not wrong. If Claremont intended for either kiss to be seen as some betrayal, he would have written a scene to that effect. He did not.

Yeah... Storm admitted that Rogue would kill the both of them either just before the kiss or after. Suggested murder is probably indicating wrong doing of some sort in the eyes of someone. I would assume Claremont put that there to let us in on what implications the kiss could have. I also dont recall asking you any questions, especially about the word platonic... I've stated what I was talking about, anything else was me responding to your points, not me making my own. My comment about Storm was a joke that wasnt even directed toward you or our conversation. It wasn't to prove any point, but insert as a joke (which I stated was a joke at least twice before this). I'm not confusing anything. Your twisting statements in an attempt to find fault in my state of "I DONT BELIEVE WRITERS HAVE SUCCESSFULLY WRITTEN THEM AS BEING 'JUST FRIENDS'". This is my only point. Anything else is me responding to you. I'm done with this, we arent even talking about the same thing.

[Jiraiya]

And I am saying there is no romance because sexual tension does not equal romance. You asked me if they are platonic and I provided you with the definition of platonic. If I have feelings for someone that doesn't mean we are in a romance and it doesn't mean we are not platonic. I can't have a romance with someone if they don't reciprocate and Rogue and Gambit have not reciprocated the feelings they have for each other in any way that constitutes a romance. So all we have is sexual tension between former lovers who are now friends. You are mixing up terms IMO. Romance is entirely different than sexual tension.

And you can't claim something is wrong regarding the Storm and Bishop scenes because it's not your relationship. If Gambit and Rogue are comfortable with each other kissing other people then it's not wrong. If Claremont intended for either kiss to be seen as some betrayal, he would have written a scene to that effect. He did not. In the Rogue scene in particular, everyone present knows she is with Gambit and yet not a single person said anything to Rogue about it so the logical conclusion is that they understand that Rogue/Gambit sharing a kiss with a friend is apparently not an issue between them. So my impression is while there is no way in hell I would be fine with it that between Gambit and Rogue that is the nature of their relationship at that time. Just like I ain't into swinging but who am I to tell another couple that them doing so is wrong. That's their deal not mine.

I think we have very different interpretations of Gambit. While I agree he's care free in many respects people relationships hold a fair amount of weight for him. Despite that reputation he's pretty loyal and has shown many times he doesn't approve of cheating despite his failures. He's turned down many advances including the offer of having a Rogue body with mystique. In ANXF he was mortified when he discovered the woman he slept with was married and not just because she was his employers wife. He views these things seriously. The end of his solo was also littered with their ship ending and it's issues rather than him rejecting the avengers. He rejected being somewhere he felt he wasn't truly wanted a place where his queen of hearts called him untrustworthy and a thief. It was less him choosing the guilds and more him leaving Rogue. Remy has no real desire to lead the guilds or really play part more than restricting bad behaviour. Which is witnessed by his neglect of the guild in anxf. He arrives at the island and his father chastised him for that.

I'll give you that they are friendly to each other given their ships but he stayed because he saw a future with her. You know home and harbour... That's not something you say to someone you see only as a friend. Also it's not in his nature to hang around with his exes after a bad ending... See Belladonna exit when he leaves her for the last time with a kiss on the Forehead. AoA when he leaves Rogue after she chose magnus that silhouetted walk away scene both used in the solo finale showing he's walking away from her. Not the avengers just her in that scene.

As for Rogue despite the spate of relationships writers have pushed her in lately. She is commited when trying and loyal. The bishop kiss was an exaggerated greeting, very much without any further intent. She has suffered along time until she got control over her power with ships and knows their value she won't be so hippie with them. She free spirited and flirtatious, sexual and brash but I won't go near swinger I don't think that's her style at aĺl.

All this tells me friendship for them is a bad idea. Their attraction to each other will only cause friction and pain in their lives. It possible but a suboptimal outcome for both. Better they nut up or shut up in this case. But again this is just my interpretation and opinion based on how interpreted it.

[remydat]

Yeah... Storm admitted that Rogue would kill the both of them either just before the kiss or after. Suggested murder is probably indicating wrong doing of some sort in the eyes of someone. I would assume Claremont put that there to let us in on what implications the kiss could have. I also dont recall asking you any questions, especially about the word platonic... I've stated what I was talking about, anything else was me responding to your points, not me making my own. My comment about Storm was a joke that wasnt even directed toward you or our conversation. It wasn't to prove any point, but insert as a joke (which I stated was a joke at least twice before this). I'm not confusing anything. Your twisting statements in an attempt to find fault in my state of "I DONT BELIEVE WRITERS HAVE SUCCESSFULLY WRITTEN THEM AS BEING 'JUST FRIENDS'". This is my only point. Anything else is me responding to you. I'm done with this, we arent even talking about the same thing.

"I DONT BELIEVE WRITERS HAVE SUCCESSFULLY WRITTEN THEM AS BEING 'JUST FRIENDS'"

This is your statement and this is what I have been arguing about.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/platonic

That's the definition of platonic which being in a platonic relationship means you are friends. You said to me, "You also believe their interactions during his solo were purely platonically based, even with the blatant threesome joke Asmus wrote, ok. Difference in opinions." So all I am saying to you is that I am applying the factual definition of the word platonic and I am applying the facts as they exist in the comics to conclude on a factual basis that they are just friends. Gambit and Rogue are not in a romance. Gambit and Rogue are not having sex. Joking about a threesome, flirting, or having sexual tension does not constitute a romance nor does it constitute sex. Hence by the very definition of the word (ie not an opinion), it is a fact that they are platonic.

So that is where I think the confusion comes up. I am not twisting your statements. I am trying to tell you that words have standard definitions and based on those standard definitions, Rogue and Gambit are currently just friends ie platonic. You seem to be incorporating within the concept of platonic or just friends some other considerations and factors outside of the actual definition which is what I was trying to point out to you. Now if you are saying to me that what happened in the solo constitutes a romance (certainly there was no sex) and hence means they are not platonic then I am happy to hear that argument. Alternatively, if you are simply using your own personal definition of a word, that is fine as well but I was approaching the discussion with the actual definition in mind not our own personal definitions.

[Badou]

There is no reasoning with them, remydat. They want Gambit and Rogue to be together regardless if the romance has been a horrible train wreck for Gambit the past decade or more where it caused him to lose his standing within the X-Men books. They can't see them as anything other than being romantically involved if they interact. Rogue's moved on from Gambit a long time ago and I wish a large part of Gambit's fans would let him do the same.

[remydat]

I think we have very different interpretations of Gambit. While I agree he's care free in many respects people relationships hold a fair amount of weight for him. Despite that reputation he's pretty loyal and has shown many times he doesn't approve of cheating despite his failures. He's turned down many advances including the offer of having a Rogue body with mystique. In ANXF he was mortified when he discovered the woman he slept with was married and not just because she was his employers wife. He views these things seriously. The end of his solo was also littered with their ship ending and it's issues rather than him rejecting the avengers. He rejected being somewhere he felt he wasn't truly wanted a place where his queen of hearts called him untrustworthy and a thief. It was less him choosing the guilds and more him leaving Rogue. Remy has no real desire to lead the guilds or really play part more than restricting bad behaviour. Which is witnessed by his neglect of the guild in anxf. He arrives at the island and his father chastised him for that.

I'll give you that they are friendly to each other given their ships but he stayed because he saw a future with her. You know home and harbour... That's not something you say to someone you see only as a friend. Also it's not in his nature to hang around with his exes after a bad ending... See Belladonna exit when he leaves her for the last time with a kiss on the Forehead. AoA when he leaves Rogue after she chose magnus that silhouetted walk away scene both used in the solo finale showing he's walking away from her. Not the avengers just her in that scene.

As for Rogue despite the spate of relationships writers have pushed her in lately. She is commited when trying and loyal. The bishop kiss was an exaggerated greeting, very much without any further intent. She has suffered along time until she got control over her power with ships and knows their value she won't be so hippie with them. She free spirited and flirtatious, sexual and brash but I won't go near swinger I don't think that's her style at aĺl.

All this tells me friendship for them is a bad idea. Their attraction to each other will only cause friction and pain in their lives. It possible but a suboptimal outcome for both. Better they nut up or shut up in this case. But again this is just my interpretation and opinion based on how interpreted it.

Gambit and Rogue are functions of the writers. Their attitudes and personalities change based on the writer. I wasn't suggesting Gambit is carefree when it comes to relationships all the time. I was suggesting that during XXM, Claremont wrote them after they lost their powers and Gambit coming to terms with Rogue bringing him back from the dead as having a pretty carefree relationship meaning they had complete trust with each other and all the angst in their relationship was gone which is why he had Gambit and Rogue kissing other people with no further fallout. I was suggesting they were hippie in a swinger sense. Just that they were hippie in the overly affectionate towards their friends. I brought up the swinger thing as just an extreme example of something I personally can't deal with but ultimately if a couple decides that is what is best for them then so be it. Likewise, I don't think Gambit or Rogue being overly affectionate with Storm or Bishop means anything if ultimately both of them have no problem with it.

As for the end of the solo, I don't think it was either or. The point of the solo was Gambit letting go of both Rogue and this traditional idea of a hero. Hence why he refused the request to be with the Avengers and hence why he accepted the position as King of Thieves. He could have merely returned to the X-men and the X-men only if it was simply all about Rogue but he also chose to be KoT. The only reason the latter was not dealt with in more detail was because the solo ended and PAD decided to go in a different direction and you can't use what PAD wrote as some indication as to what Asmus intended because Asmus had no involvement in PAD's ANXF. The intent of the solo was to show he was starting a new chapter of his life both personally and professionally by living a life on his own terms and not someone else's.

As for whether a friendship is optimal or suboptimal, I don't really care one way or the other. People change and mature in real life and as fictional characters there is no reason why they can't be written as maturing enough to have a good friendship nor is there no reason why they can't be written as having a disaster of a friendship. Again, that is down to how a writer wants to approach things and any comment on whether it is optimal or suboptimal is merely opinion or preference which I am pretty indifferent about.

[remydat]

There is no reasoning with them, remydat. They want Gambit and Rogue to be together regardless if the romance has been a horrible train wreck for Gambit the past decade or more where it caused him to lose his standing within the X-Men books. They can't see them as anything other than being romantically involved if they interact. Rogue's moved on from Gambit a long time ago and I wish a large part of Gambit's fans would let him do the same.

Well I think Jiraiya's position is lovers or bust but I think Don and I are more debating how they are currently being written disagreeing on the concept of just friends. So slightly different arguments really. However, the fact is any relationship scenario is possible and I don't think it's a matter of one being better than the other. I think we all have a tendency to view one outcome as better than the other based on our personal perspective on the matter. I personally would consider Gambit a monumental idiot if he ever got back with Rogue but I recognize that is simply my own bias talking. The fact is them getting back together is better or worse than any other outcome and all that matters is how well it would be written even if I couldn't personally get behind it at all.

[Jiraiya]

There is no reasoning with them, remydat. They want Gambit and Rogue to be together regardless if the romance has been a horrible train wreck for Gambit the past decade or more where it caused him to lose his standing within the X-Men books. They can't see them as anything other than being romantically involved if they interact. Rogue's moved on from Gambit a long time ago and I wish a large part of Gambit's fans would let him do the same.

Lol I didn't say they have to be in a ship only.

I said independant or together. I just left out the friendship as it would only ever be a compromised mess. I never said they should only be together. I made allowance for break up by separating them completely as I can't see a real balanced friendship existing as they have been written.

You are right that I think them being on a team as "friends" is bad and frankly given the history a hot mess not to be repeated. It would be a disservice to both charactets... I'd rather he broaden his horizons if he's out of her orbit and just stay away from her completely unless in dire need for short cameos and then the history should be respected. He should reflect the hurt he's been put through. It shouldn't be whitewashed into some happy fantast friendship like nothing is wrong or happened that left a gaping rift. It would take some stellar writing to convince me that it's even a plausible idea and deal with that mess of their lives. And certainly not some off panel we talked it out and we are friends now all that unrequited love just melted away and i am no longer worried about the fact you left me for a man that tried to torture and muder me or that you called me an untrustworthy thief because I waved a magic plot hole wand.

The only reason I'd see for him to hang around long enough to be on a team with her is they were trying to fix the mess that is their ship and deal with its issues. I dont see friendship as an option given what's happened while they still love each other I see friendship as a non option. Not one up like to see written.

[Jiraiya]

Remydat there you have it letting go of Rogue... and why would he do that.... despite no love lost because it doesn't work hanging around being her friend when he wants more. Esp when she feels as she does about him Untrustworthy thief. also why she shouldn't be on a team with him. Because well teamwork takes trust. It's why you can't write them as "just" friends... the rest is fluff. They iether need to go their seperate ways or break through those boundaries and deal with their problems after that I'd be thinking couple not buds.

[donpricetag]

There is no reasoning with them, remydat. They want Gambit and Rogue to be together regardless if the romance has been a horrible train wreck for Gambit the past decade or more where it caused him to lose his standing within the X-Men books. They can't see them as anything other than being romantically involved if they interact. Rogue's moved on from Gambit a long time ago and I wish a large part of Gambit's fans would let him do the same.

Going out on a limb and say you just skimmed the posts here. I don't think anyone short of Jiraiya and maybe one other person said anything about their preference of them actually being in a relationship and even Jiraiya not sticking to either side. But I guess we appreciate your contribution anyway!

I look forward to seeing where he's going to pop up next. I believe its rumored that there will eventually be another X-Men book on the horizon. While I dont put much stock in things like that, I hope Gambit ends up on the roster. Frankly, even if he's just a recurring character, I'd be satisfied... to a point. My hope is that he'll start popping up around the MU as the head of Thieves Guild. I think he'd fit in nicely in books like Secret Avengers (if it still existed) or anything that would involve the Underground or Intelligence Community. Seeing him run into types like Black Widow, Hawkeye, and Maria Hill would be pretty fitting IMO.

[Jiraiya]

Going out on a limb and say you just skimmed the posts here. I don't think anyone short of Jiraiya and maybe one other person said anything about their preference of them actually being in a relationship and even Jiraiya not sticking to either side. But I guess we appreciate your contribution anyway!

I look forward to seeing where he's going to pop up next. I believe its rumored that there will eventually be another X-Men book on the horizon. While I dont put much stock in things like that, I hope Gambit ends up on the roster. Frankly, even if he's just a recurring character, I'd be satisfied... to a point. My hope is that he'll start popping up around the MU as the head of Thieves Guild. I think he'd fit in nicely in books like Secret Avengers (if it still existed) or anything that would involve the Underground or Intelligence Community. Seeing him run into types like Black Widow, Hawkeye, and Maria Hill would be pretty fitting IMO.

I think underworld avengers could be fun .

I figured i could also go for him being used as a Street level noir kind of character exploring new Orleans dark side... from dealing organised crime to a few supernatural events. Give him a fresh new apprentice you could do so much... Use the guilds, mafia bring in the supernatural and mutants. Dangerous edge of you seat kind of stuff getting by on a hope and a prayer and a ton of street smarts.

Lol
This might be influenced by the Jim butcher books I am reading atm ...

[Spasticat]

At this point I just want to know what became of the cats....

[anyajenkins]

...so marvel killed the kittens...those monsters...

Why aren't we talking about the movie folks confirming that the gambit movie is the 'present' (sorta)

[Jiraiya]

...so marvel killed the kittens...those monsters...

Why aren't we talking about the movie folks confirming that the gambit movie is the 'present' (sorta)

As if Gambit would let them. They are probably off having a pleasant break in new Orleans. Has any one seen the hateful 8? I'm curious how he did in a more serious tarantino film.

[remydat]

Remydat there you have it letting go of Rogue... and why would he do that.... despite no love lost because it doesn't work hanging around being her friend when he wants more. Esp when she feels as she does about him Untrustworthy thief. also why she shouldn't be on a team with him. Because well teamwork takes trust. It's why you can't write them as "just" friends... the rest is fluff. They iether need to go their seperate ways or break through those boundaries and deal with their problems after that I'd be thinking couple not buds.

If you can't write them as just friends because of trust then sure as hell can't write them as lovers because then that's a bigger issue for lovers. He let go because he needed time away after deciding to basically move on. When I broke up with my ex of 5 years, we didn't just hop into a friendship. We spent some time away from and not really talking to each other and then after about 6 or 7 months, we slowly built back our friendship.

So if they need to build trust back then there is no requirement for that to then mean they need to be lovers again. Trust in the context of friendship is different than Trust in the context of a relationship. I think Gambit and Rogue both know that if they were ever in trouble that ultimately they would come through for each other. That is really all that is needed to build trust in a friendship. However, in order to build a romantic relationship the level of trust goes beyond that and there is no reason that Rogue and Gambit can't reach the level required for friendship and leave it at that.

Having said that, I have no real desire for them to be in a book together. If they were ever to be friends I would prefer it be of the variety of the occasional reference or appearance in each other's book as I don't care if they are ever in a book again or not. Just like I don't need to see Storm and Gambit in a book all the time to know they are friends.