Le Diable Blanc: Gambit Appreciation

[remydat]

...so marvel killed the kittens...those monsters...

Why aren't we talking about the movie folks confirming that the gambit movie is the 'present' (sorta)

When and in what book did this happen.

[Badou]

Going out on a limb and say you just skimmed the posts here. I don't think anyone short of Jiraiya and maybe one other person said anything about their preference of them actually being in a relationship and even Jiraiya not sticking to either side. But I guess we appreciate your contribution anyway!

No, I read your posts. I just think you don't want to see them as just being friends because you want them to be in a relationship again. I mean I have to disagree with your opinion on Gage's Legacy run. I thought he wrote them fine as friends there. It wasn't a good run but neither character was written as having angst towards one another really. Gambit was on her team helping her at the school and providing support when needed, but he never really pressured her or called her out on anything regarding her relationship with Magneto. He was just there. Then when she ended her relationship with Magneto he didn't take another swing at her or do anything romantic. That is what their relationship should be, imo. Asmus sort of messed it up when he threw some angst back into it with his book, with how he had Rogue run after him for some reason, but thankfully it was all ignored.

[Neko]

I do want to clear up one thing about the friends thing - from my pov.

This Gambit fan doesn't romy, as a matter of fact, I don't like Rogue. Not only should they not be lovers, but they shouldn't be friends. Based on all of their history, they would be lousy friends. Nobody would take the crap they've done as lovers and convert to a friendship.

My whole stance was, it would be unrealistic for them to be friends. And I'm not supporting that if not friends - lovers only. I don't think after all that they've been through and done to each other in the comic books as lovers, that being friends or best buddies or BFF's would make sense. It doesn't work for me storywise. And now for the final part - In my opinion.

I know very few people who have slept with someone (making them a lover), then said be friends and stayed friends. The sex part of the relationship muddies things up. Gambit and Rogue are exes.

I am not advocating Gambit and Rogue being in a relationship. I am firmly in the anyone but Rogue camp, but being friends after their failed affair is unbelievable from a story point of view for me.

There are those who believe they would be friends or should be after all the crap that has gone on between them. Fine if you believe it. And if you desire it, great too.

Perhaps this time in regards to my friends comments I'm more clear. If not, remember I used the words in my opinion and to me.

[Jiraiya]

If you can't write them as just friends because of trust then sure as hell can't write them as lovers because then that's a bigger issue for lovers. He let go because he needed time away after deciding to basically move on. When I broke up with my ex of 5 years, we didn't just hop into a friendship. We spent some time away from and not really talking to each other and then after about 6 or 7 months, we slowly built back our friendship.

So if they need to build trust back then there is no requirement for that to then mean they need to be lovers again. Trust in the context of friendship is different than Trust in the context of a relationship. I think Gambit and Rogue both know that if they were ever in trouble that ultimately they would come through for each other. That is really all that is needed to build trust in a friendship. However, in order to build a romantic relationship the level of trust goes beyond that and there is no reason that Rogue and Gambit can't reach the level required for friendship and leave it at that.

Having said that, I have no real desire for them to be in a book together. If they were ever to be friends I would prefer it be of the variety of the occasional reference or appearance in each other's book as I don't care if they are ever in a book again or not. Just like I don't need to see Storm and Gambit in a book all the time to know they are friends.

How about for the sake of the thread we let this go. We clearly have differing views and experiences and see this in differing lights. I can't see them as just friends it just makes no sense to me. To me gage and Carey's runs were not great for Gambit as Badou tries to sell for his friendship argument. Asmus was much closer to their nature and accounted more respectfully for their history (he clearly cared for them both and was pretty good about it too he was tender and kept the angst reasonable and honest.he didn't just brush over gambits issues and pretend all was well. he didn't bash characters expressing it either he made them feel like real people with real emotions). Something gage and Carey didn't care for with regard to Gambit (and romy by extension, Carey had to omit pieces and confect things in their history to get his story to work. He had little respect for the history that didn't suit his vision of what he wanted Rogue to be (that being sans Gambit). (hence we got the mighty Racky lebeau while he figured a way break them apart. He did a great job of it too, so much so friendship doesn't work either any more. Gage and carey had no real love for him and it showed in their neglect of him). For friendship to work for them, their would need to be a fundamental shift in the characters that wouldn't do iether justice (we already had a flash of that and it was ugly). It wouldn't be them anymore. I can't see "just" friends ever. But I respect your right to believe in it.

[remydat]

No, I read your posts. I just think you don't want to see them as just being friends because you want them to be in a relationship again. I mean I have to disagree with your opinion on Gage's Legacy run. I thought he wrote them fine as friends there. It wasn't a good run but neither character was written as having angst towards one another really. Gambit was on her team helping her at the school and providing support when needed, but he never really pressured her or called her out on anything regarding her relationship with Magneto. He was just there. Then when she ended her relationship with Magneto he didn't take another swing at her or do anything romantic. That is what their relationship should be, imo. Asmus sort of messed it up when he threw some angst back into it with his book, with how he had Rogue run after him for some reason, but thankfully it was all ignored.

I think you're forgetting that Gambit kissed Frenzy and then freaked out about it which is what most Gambit fans hated. It made Gambit look pathetic considering Rogue was banging Mags without a care in the world.

How about for the sake of the thread we let this go. We clearly have differing views and experiences and see this in differing lights. I can't see them as just friends it just makes no sense to me. To me gage and Carey's runs were not great for Gambit as Badou tries to sell for his friendship argument. Asmus was much closer to their nature and accounted more respectfully for their history (he clearly cared for them both and was pretty good about it too he was tender and kept the angst reasonable and honest.he didn't just brush over gambits issues and pretend all was well. he didn't bash characters expressing it either he made them feel like real people with real emotions). Something gage and Carey didn't care for with regard to Gambit (and romy by extension, Carey had to omit pieces and confect things in their history to get his story to work. He had little respect for the history that didn't suit his vision of what he wanted Rogue to be (that being sans Gambit). (hence we got the mighty Racky lebeau while he figured a way break them apart. He did a great job of it too, so much so friendship doesn't work either any more. Gage and carey had no real love for him and it showed in their neglect of him). For friendship to work for them, their would need to be a fundamental shift in the characters that wouldn't do iether justice (we already had a flash of that and it was ugly). It wouldn't be them anymore. I can't see "just" friends ever. But I respect your right to believe in it.

To say them being lovers could somehow do justice to their characters but them being friends would not do either character justice to me is to somehow suggest your opinion is better than others which is what I take issue with. It's your opinion and you are free to have it but it is simply illogical to me to suggest they could potentially be lovers again but that being friends would be some injustice when the things making their relationship difficult are things that make them being lovers far more tenuous than them simply being friends.

Point being, I think you are going beyond merely stating your personal preference and instead allowing your bias in preferring one outcome over another to result in an illogical conclusion. The truth is people change and mature all the time and the only thing that is required for justice to be done to them as friends or lovers is a writer writing them well. There is no law that says they can't possible be written well as friends simply because you prefer them as lovers. Just as I despise them as lovers but there is no law that says they couldn't ever be written well as lovers.

[cc008]

Man, you guys are so passionate about this topic. It's exhausting lol

[Jiraiya]

I think you're forgetting that Gambit kissed Frenzy and then freaked out about it which is what most Gambit fans hated. It made Gambit look pathetic considering Rogue was banging Mags without a care in the world.



To say them being lovers could somehow do justice to their characters but them being friends would not do either character justice to me is to somehow suggest your opinion is better than others which is what I take issue with. It's your opinion and you are free to have it but it is simply illogical to me to suggest they could potentially be lovers again but that being friends would be some injustice when the things making their relationship difficult are things that make them being lovers far more tenuous than them simply being friends.

Point being, I think you are going beyond merely stating your personal preference and instead allowing your bias in preferring one outcome over another to result in an illogical conclusion. The truth is people change and mature all the time and the only thing that is required for justice to be done to them as friends or lovers is a writer writing them well. There is no law that says they can't possible be written well as friends simply because you prefer them as lovers. Just as I despise them as lovers but there is no law that says they couldn't ever be written well as lovers.

You're starting to get a bit personal playing me here and not the issue. I do not state my opinion is better than anyother. I also do not ever state they should be exclusively lovers either. I can also see them moving apart completely. That is an honest view not some wedge I use break friendship argument to try force a coupling only argument. Frienship doesn't fit to me. It is just a more sensible position to me based on what I've read and I'm debating the point. Nothing you have laid out has compelled me to view it differently nor has anything I said compelled you to view it differently. Your view hinges on your experience and a writer finding a way to fix a balance and change a dynamic set over decades. Mine is based on existing history and experience. I have never seen them written well as "just" friends even when they were friends their is an undercurrent undermining it it doesn't make sense that will change (esp canonically you can't just pretend the past didn't happen). Esp Based on just how invested he is and she was. My outcome is not particularly Illogical it just doesn't suit your world view. Gambit is too invested to ever just be friends look at how fast he dropped frenzy for precisely that or how hurt he is by her words. I see lovers because if they could over come the trust deficit and she re-invests in Gambit you could rebalance their ship with mutual love if she starts to love him the same way he does her (unlikely). I see that more likely than him suddenly deciding she's not the love of his life and he just wants to be friends esp after the lengths he's gone to. Heck he states himself in the solo he is a one woman man before leaving Joelle to give rogue that queen. As for friendship you cannot have a balanced friendship as long as there is such an imbalance in their desires as long as he wants more it's doomed (it's become a huge part of him yoi can't just wipe it away or are you recommending retcon. I'd rather it be dealt with and closed off by nutting up or shutting up not dragging it out with a broken friendship ). He will miss read moment, make advances and cause issues in her other relationships and his own. he won't sit idle forever playing friend... it doesn't work. Ontop of that for someone to be friends with their exes they need to be as divested of it as their formet partner. And then they generally they drift apart due to differences in who they are unless they really have something else that makes the friendship work . This friendship fails when the emotions pulling them together are lost that being their attraction to each other and their love for each other and a view to the future which is pretty dead atm. beside that what is there between them as far as shared interests go that friends would have? A friendly Hiest maybe I doubt it.

For the sake of civility how about we drop this. I won't post again on this issue even after you next response. you should certainly have the right of reply to my thoughts.

[remydat]

You're starting to get a bit personal playing me here and not the issue. I do not state my opinion is better than anyother. I also do not ever state they should be exclusively lovers either. I can also see them moving apart completely. That is an honest view not some wedge I use break friendship argument to try force a coupling only argument. Frienship doesn't fit to me. It is just a more sensible position to me based on what I've read and I'm debating the point. Nothing you have laid out has compelled me to view it differently nor has anything I said compelled you to view it differently. Your view hinges on your experience and a writer finding a way to fix a balance and change a dynamic set over decades. Mine is based on existing history and experience. I have never seen them written well as "just" friends even when they were friends their is an undercurrent undermining it it doesn't make sense that will change (esp canonically you can't just pretend the past didn't happen). Esp Based on just how invested he is and she was. My outcome is not particularly Illogical it just doesn't suit your world view. Gambit is too invested to ever just be friends look at how fast he dropped frenzy for precisely that or how hurt he is by her words. I see lovers because if they could over come the trust deficit and she re-invests in Gambit you could rebalance their ship with mutual love if she starts to love him the same way he does her (unlikely). I see that more likely than him suddenly deciding she's not the love of his life and he just wants to be friends esp after the lengths he's gone to. Heck he states himself in the solo he is a one woman man before leaving Joelle to give rogue that queen. As for friendship you cannot have a balanced friendship as long as there is such an imbalance in their desires as long as he wants more it's doomed (it's become a huge part of him yoi can't just wipe it away or are you recommending retcon. I'd rather it be dealt with and closed off by nutting up or shutting up not dragging it out with a broken friendship ). He will miss read moment, make advances and cause issues in her other relationships and his own. he won't sit idle forever playing friend... it doesn't work. Ontop of that for someone to be friends with their exes they need to be as divested of it as their formet partner. And then they generally they drift apart due to differences in who they are unless they really have something else that makes the friendship work . This friendship fails when the emotions pulling them together are lost that being their attraction to each other and their love for each other and a view to the future which is pretty dead atm. beside that what is there between them as far as shared interests go that friends would have? A friendly Hiest maybe I doubt it.

For the sake of civility how about we drop this. I won't post again on this issue even after you next response. you should certainly have the right of reply to my thoughts.

Not sure how anything I said was getting personal as I made it clear the same logic applies to me. Let me try this again. I hate Romy. I mean absolutely hate it to the point I wish it never existed. Having said that, a writer could do justice to the characters because despite my hate for it, I fully understand that my hate doesn't determine whether something does justice to a character or not. What determines that is how well the story is written.

So that is why I said your statement is illogical. These are fictional characters. There is no one story or relationship type that is better for a set of characters. You can say you prefer one relationship type over another. You can say you think one type is better than the other. However when you make a statement that writing them as friends wouldn't do justice to the characters, you have crossed over into making a claim that makes no sense because it presumes that a writer can't possibly write a convincing story of Gambit and Rogue as friends. That's silly. A writer with enough skill for storytelling can forge a friendship between any two characters.

You haven't seen them written well as friends because no writer has desired to do so. Gambit freaked out over Frenzy because that is what Gage wanted to write. In AXM, Liu had Gambit courting Cece and there was no angst or anything with Rogue. Then in the Asmus solo, Asmus decided to write that angst back into it. So it's not about forgetting the past. It's about the simple fact that plenty of humans have breakups and plenty of them move on and end up as friends. So we all know it's possible. So the only thing that prevents it from happening to Rogue and Gambit is simply the writer.

[remydat]

Oh and just to hammer this home, so the claim is Gambit and Rogue haven't been written well as friends. Ok, when have they been written well as lovers? Lets look at this.

1. Gambit joins the X-men and flirts with Rogue. Part of the reason there is a decent contingent of fans that dislike Gambit is they view his courtship of Rogue as being pretty creepy. First and foremost if I recall Gambit suggested to Rogue that his powers would allow her to touch him which is a pretty screwed up thing to do to someone like Rogue who is so emotional over her powers.

2. Gambit neglects to tell Rogue for years about his involvement in the MM. Personally I don't necessarily think he had to tell her but let's be honest there for most women, neglecting to tell her about such a significant fact that impacts many of their friends is not really the grounds for great romance.

3. There have been several times when Rogue and Gambit have physically assaulted each other. In the comic verse, I suppose this is not uncommon but still not really what I would call a great aspect of a relationship.

4. During his trial, instead of telling Rogue about the MM, Gambit decides to use the situation to basically get in Rogue's pants because they may die. I suppose for Romy fans this is considered a nice romantic moment but for others it seems a bit untoward.

5. During this seem trial, Gambit allows Rogue to be what she described as mentally raped rather than tell her the truth about what happened.

6. At the conclusion of the trial instead of talking things out like adults, Rogue abandons Gambit to die. He would most certainly have died if not for some random Green Mist Lady that falls from plot heaven to save him.

7. During his first solo when all the New Sun stuff is going on, Gambit once again hides all of this from Rogue despite just coming off the whole MM thing and being abandoned to die because well the man likes his secrets. Again probably something you should tell something if you are presumably seeking an open and honest relationship.

8. During his second solo, Gambit and Lili Penrose do something behind closed doors on tape. Regardless of what actually happened, instead of coming clean to Rogue, Gambit instead employs some of the X-kids from his solo to steal the tape before Rogue can see it.

9. During Blinded by the Light, Mystique infiltrates the X-men as Foxx and seduces Gambit. Gambit is clearly tempted because he currently isn't getting any from Rogue apparently because they never heard of condoms and even when she reveals herself as Mystique and then transforms into Rogue, Gambit is tempted. What actually happened between the two is never officially stated and I personally think Gambit wouldn't be that dumb but the key thing here is Gambit once again keeps this a secret from Rogue until such time that it is revealed by someone else.

10. During BoA, Gambit without telling Rogue decides to infiltrate Apocalypse's camp, gets brainwashed and then provides to try and kill Rogue.

11. Post BoA, Rogue says to Cyclops she will stay and wait for Gambit because she wuvs him but actually doesn't do jack **** to find him.

12. After BoA, Gambit turns to not to Rogue and X-men but rather turns to Mr. Sinister who is apparently the only person he can actually trust to fix him. This is particularly hilarious.

13. After Gambit betrays the X-men to save Rogue and Rogue wakes up, she basically tells Gambit to leave her alone.

14. After Gambit goes looking for Rogue to help her gain control of her powers and after she gains that control and finally after all those years of not being able to touch, Rogue kisses Gambit and basically tells him to get lost. Apparently she only wuved him when he was the only dude stupid enough to wuv her when she couldn't touch anyone. The minute homegirl could touch other dudes, she basically tells Gambit, I need time, lol.

15. During X-men Legacy, Gambit pours his heart out to Rogue with the infamous Harbor Speech. Rogue responds to this heartfelt declaration of eternal love by using it as justification to screw Mags.

16. During X-men Legacy, Gambit under the influence of Susan in Sunshine basically admits he pushed Rogue towards Mags because anytime she sees Mags up close, she realizes who he really is. So basically tried to manipulate her so that she would reject Mags which of course because Carey was writing it backfired epically. Either way, it's canon this is what Gambit tried to do which is a pretty shitty thing to do.

17. During XXM, Gambit dies and wants to go to heaven because he thinks he has finally found redemption. Rogue basically says she doesn't give a **** what Gambit wants and brings him back from the pearly gates in total disregard to Gambit's wishes for his own life.

18. During XXM, as already mentioned in this thread, Gambit is seen making out with naked Storm and Rogue is seen locking lips with Bishop. I certainly think these instances were meant to be taken harmlessly but as the debate with DP pointed out, this is not something everyone agrees with.

19. During the solo, Rogue writes a report on Gambit that because says he is untrustworthy. At no point during her attempted recruitment of Gambit did she bother to mention this to him and Gambit finds out because Fence steals the report for him. Seems like something two people.

So remind me again, when these two have been written well as lovers/romantically linked? For their entire relationship, Gambit has lied by omission to Rogue and apparently the main reason Rogue was with Gambit was because he was the only idiot foolish enough to try and be with someone he couldn't touch. From the moment she gained control of her powers, Rogue suddenly didn't want to be with Gambit anymore.

So if we are relying strictly canon to decide on whether Gambit and Rogue should be lovers or friends then the answer from the canon is NONE OF THE ABOVE. They have been a disaster as friends and lovers but again that doesn't mean any one scenario is better than the other because a writer could in fact fix the above and in so doing forge a good friendship or romance. It's illogical to claim a writer is only capable of fixing one but not the other as there is plenty to find fault in regarding their supposed romance.

[Dantes617]

Sigh... How about those cats?

[anyajenkins]

They were tragically killed in Inhumans #3. Curse you Inhumans *shakes fist angrily* ok no not really... they've disappeared into limbo. What are the chances that they show up or are mentioned in UA 5? I say about .5 %

[Dantes617]

They were tragically killed in Inhumans #3. Curse you Inhumans *shakes fist angrily* ok no not really... they've disappeared into limbo. What are the chances that they show up or are mentioned in UA 5? I say about .5 %

Yes...yes, the Inhumans are to blame. Although, as much I enjoy the cats, perhaps Gambit's lifestyle is better fitted to a gold fish or a desert plant.

[remydat]

They were tragically killed in Inhumans #3. Curse you Inhumans *shakes fist angrily* ok no not really... they've disappeared into limbo. What are the chances that they show up or are mentioned in UA 5? I say about .5 %

Oh you had me going for a while. I thought Marvel actually killed them, lol.

[anyajenkins]

*looking around suspiciously* I would not put it past the evil marvel overlords... #the complex is real... The kittens should make a triumphant return and take over the pet avengers. Cats are naturally superior.

[Jiraiya]

*looking around suspiciously* I would not put it past the evil marvel overlords... #the complex is real... The kittens should make a triumphant return and take over the pet avengers. Cats are naturally superior.

Shall we start an online revolution to #SAVE THE CATS?