Le Diable Blanc: Gambit Appreciation

[Omegarogue]

You could say the same thing about Romy fans that cling to their 90s relationship and refuse to let the characters move on. Especially when the relationship has proven to be harmful to the characters, especially Gambit the last decade.

What you seem to be missing is that the fundamental problem is that when Gambit is written with Rogue he falls into the role of being her supporting character. That is just how it is now with them. He loses all agency and his narrative becomes about her. That is the Gambit we don't want. It isn't about bring 90s Gambit back, having him get back at Rogue, or turning him into an A-List character, but about Gambit being able to just be his own character again instead of a character that revolves around Rogue, and I personally believe that can't happen if he is attached to Rogue. His whole character just becomes about her development and that is a big reason why I believe his character has fallen off so much. So much of his depth, other character relationships and dynamics, importance in the MCU and even reasons why he is part of the X-Men have all waned as he and been pushed into the role of supporting Rogue's ongoing story.

I like Rogue and think she has been written fantastically the last handful of years, and I also understand some Gambit fans might be perfectly fine with him just being her supporting character. They might just be happy they are being written together in any form, but I can't be like that. I've had my fill of that a long time ago. Maybe if Marvel decides to swing the pendulum the other way for a bit and actually have stories where Gambit is the focus and Rogue is the support I'll change my attitude, but outside of Gambit's solo it has been a long, long time since that has happened.

The problem in which, according to you, Remy is stuck, it is not Rogue's fault, clarifying that.

Since he finished his solo series, Gambit is not the secondary character of Rogue, (which in XML if I agree was) Gambit is the secondary character in general, that's not Rogue's fault, that's because the character They have left stagnant in the cliche of the 90's.

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Remy in gold was a secondary that little nothing did, to see what he did in his recent appearance in gold, AXm is the one that did least, although good AXM was a bit, the rest comes out in many places, but without any real importance, only as cameos, or haciendod and small-time thief.


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Remy needs to reinvent himself, I would even like it and always say it, they will explore his Death side. SINCERELY IT WOULD BE BETTER THAN THEY HAVE WRITTEN FROM THE LASTLY that he is just a hero of support.

God if it is that the gambit ptoeres in the last two decades make him look like a low-level mutant, when before he was comfortably the mutant that handled the most powerful energy of the X-Men, and now it seems even below BomBom, it seems from Jub's range of powers of pitecnia, and that's sad.

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In RogueandGambit he was good in every way.

Kelly at least made him look something like what Claremont wrote, he remembered his powers of speed improvement, and improved agility, which in the last decade simply disappeared, before he was able to hit Pietro, or stop bullets with his scepter, so fast was his reaction, and even return small missiles, now seems to have a common speed and current, both in motion and in reaction. Hehco in the network killed a girl in front of him and could not do anything.

It seems to me that Kelly likes the character enough, as if to get him out of there, but with ROMY antis that attack any thing without a reason, it sure took away the desire to write about Remy in the short term, it hurts.

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ROMY is fine, if you do not like it, it's your problem, but the relationship can work, sorry.

[donpricetag]

Hmm. That's not what's wrong. Rogue didn't do anything to him and he's not stuck. Problem is weak editorial and their willingness to allow writers to ouright ignore his development for the sake of their head cannon and preferences for their weak @$$ stories.

[Danny Franks]

It just seems to me that, any time a writer tries to move on from Gambit and Rogue being in a relationship, they do so for months or maybe a year (and usually at the expense of whichever character they are less fond of) and then move to another project. So the next writer that comes along throws them back together, either through choice or editorial mandate. And the circle just repeats when that writer moves on.

I didn't read the Rogue & Gambit mini, because I genuinely have no interest in reading anything else about their relationship. I just don't think there's anything left to say about it, and have felt that way for years. Probably since the end of X-Treme X-Men. Clearly that's not a view shared by Marvel and by a lot of fans.

And that's why this is so problematic for me:

What you seem to be missing is that the fundamental problem is that when Gambit is written with Rogue he falls into the role of being her supporting character. That is just how it is now with them. He loses all agency and his narrative becomes about her. That is the Gambit we don't want. It isn't about bring 90s Gambit back, having him get back at Rogue, or turning him into an A-List character, but about Gambit being able to just be his own character again instead of a character that revolves around Rogue, and I personally believe that can't happen if he is attached to Rogue. His whole character just becomes about her development and that is a big reason why I believe his character has fallen off so much. So much of his depth, other character relationships and dynamics, importance in the MCU and even reasons why he is part of the X-Men have all waned as he and been pushed into the role of supporting Rogue's ongoing story.

Everything you say here has been true of any book I've seen in the last... decade?... that has them both in it. The only times, for me, that Gambit hasn't felt like an adjunct of Rogue, were when he featured in a book and she didn't. As someone who is a Gambit fan, and not a Rogue fan (I don't hate her. I'm just not interested), this means I'm in a rather awkward position of having to read something I don't like, just to read a story with Gambit in it... or I just don't read at all.

[remydat]

To me, it seems like unless Gambit "wins" the relationship you won't be satisfied, but then you also wanted Rogue to snap Remy out of his funk, which she essentially did when she finally understood the hurt she'd caused him and gained a fresh perspective on his side of the relationship, which brought them together, and made Gambit pretty dang happy if you ask me. Your position is kinda confusing if I'm honest.

Whether you accept it or not, Rogue is Gambit's weak spot, and vice versa, because they are in love with each other, as AppleJ pointed out. While it's totally valid to dislike Gambit when he's with Rogue, because of course he will be different with her, I would never characterise him as a "coward" around her. While Rogue struggled to allow herself to fall for him completely due to her own hangups, Remy was ready from the off to commit, even at the height of his flirtatious powers, which shows how there was more to him that and how he was willing to risk heartache with all his baggage. The key growth for this mini was taking a relationship that had stalled due to their mutual baggage (Gambit's past dishonesty/secrecy & Rogue's commitment issues) and finally moving them past their shared hurt to a stable, and hopefully healthy relationship. This is a big deal for Remy, who has pretty much only had fiery relationship filled with drama!

You keep recognising this mini was about this relationship and then complaining that Gambit didn't choose to torch a good thing to what? Tear into her when she's finally moving past the very same hang-ups you want him to be mad about? Also, Lavish was barely in it, so to say it should be "Rogue & Lavish" is ludicrous, and Gambit kicked ass in this series: freeing them both, picking locks, using Rogue's powers to great effect, holding off a load of golems so Rogue could deal with Lavish etc.

I mean this sincerely, but I honestly would suggest that perhaps you need to move past your hang-ups to potentially allow you to enjoy Gambit more! We all have characters we're protective of, but if being into cape comics has taught me anything, it's that you do need to be flexible because shared continuity and changing creative teams etc are gonna really disappoint you if you cling to too narrow a definition of a character and don't allow for other interpretations. Again, you can dislike Romy and that's fine, but you're fighting so hard for a version of Gambit that's in the past (I'm guessing early 90s Gambit is your favourite?) rather than enjoying the Gambit in front of you, written by someone with just as much fondness for him.

Not sure how it is winning to tell someone they hurt you and to have that person apologize and you both then move on. I consider that handling things like an adult.

I said it was Rogue and Lavish because they did all the heavy lifting. Gambit didn't tell Rogue how he really felt. She found out from Lavish. Gambit didn't help Rogue get past her issues with him. Lavish did. As far as development, Gambit is in the same spot he started in. He had zero personal development. By contrast, Rogue found out things about herself and moved past it.

It is funny you speak of Gambit's past dishonesty and secrecy yet none of that was addressed. Again Rogue didn't solve her issues because Gambit committed to being less dishonest or secretive. Gambit didnt work out his self loathing. Rogue worked out her insecurities with the help of Lavish.

You guys are so used to Marvel mediocrity that suddenly Gambit being competent against half assed Golems and a villain that showed zero fighting skills is suddenly great characterization. What next? We praise Gambit when he steals candy from a baby? Who is Lavish for anyone to be excited Gambit bloodied her? Yall act like he took on an actual legit fighter.

Let me ask another question. What did Gambit do to resolve any of their issues or his own issues? If you answer that honestly you will realize he actually did nothing. It was all Rogue and Lavish. Gambit has spent all this time pursuing Rogue and in the end, it is not his love and devotion that finally convinces her that he is worth it. It is Lavish via memory absorption. This is how pathetic he has become. He can't even convince the love of his life to be with him. Some half assed villain specifically created for Rogue had to do it for him. What's worse is said villain wasn't even trying and thus succeeded by mistake in doing something Gambit couldn't do in a decade of stories.

Forgive me if I expected that if Romy happened, Gambit would actively take part in making it happened. Instead he was merely a passenger in Rogue and Lavish's journey to restore Romy.

[R0d]

@remydat

I think both us wanted the past sh!t to be resolved but you wanted it done in one particular way, with Gambit pointing out to Rogue all her mistakes and while Rogue apologises Gambit waits silently till she is done. While I and many others just wanted it done in a coherent respectful way and get that chapter of their history closed once and for all, and I think Kelly did that just fine.
And just because Kelly chose a different approach than the one you and maybe a few others wanted doesn't mean she wrote a bad book, or that she treated Gambit badly and unfairly, or caused some sort of damage to him.
We suffered from years of writers that hated Gambit or simply weren't interested in him, so I think people should try to be more supporting and tolerant to the few ones that actually like him and want to write him instead of being overly harsh for the simple sake of trying to prove some sort of "point".
But hey if you want to keep complaining go ahead who am I to try to stop you.

@Neko

I agree that I don't want Gambit simply follow Rogue around to boost her, but IMHO I don't think Kelly did that in this mini, I think she treated both of them fairly and I'd be happy if she has the chance to write him again.
And yes I was hard with X-men Red but it is a brand new book not something that happened many years ago, still I'm willing to give it an opportunity same as I did with R&G, I was harsh with the first issue because I didn't like but I praised the other 4 because I thought those were great.

[remydat]

Again I dont think you read what I said. I already said KT has a right to tell the story she wanted to tell and that we simply have different visions for the character. I also already said her story was well written.

I simply think her starting point was based on a flawed premise and that Gambit failed to actually grow or take part in the resolution of things. If Rogue and Gambit get back together I dont think it is unfair for me to expect both Rogue and Gambit to be involved in the resolution. Instead it was Rogue and Lavish that worked out the relationship while Gambit just waited for the outcome.

At this point I would say read what I said and stop inventing things. I have not once said this was bad. I have explained why I personally dont like it but there are plenty of things I dont like that others find good and vice versa. I dont know why you guys think that just because someone says they dont like something it automatically means they think it is bad. That was never said. This is a well written story whose premise I disagree with and for which I thought one half of Romy was a passive observer as the other resolved their problems with a villain that literally did not exist prior to this mini. So for me it devalues the resolution when Gambit was not a part of it and when I don't give a **** about Lavish.

Again what did Gambit do to get Rogue over her insecurities? The answer is nothing. That is the problem.

[remydat]

Let me ask this another way. Whats going to happen when Rogue and Gambit have issues in the future? The mini is over and Gambit is no closer to being able to convince Rogue of anything. Is Rogue going to hunt Lavish to have her absorb more memories? Or is she going to just absorb Gambit's memories so she can find out how he really feels or relive memories to find out the truth?

These characters are no closer really to solving their issues. Rogue just had a cheat code that allowed her to bypass having to actually talk and compromise with Gambit like most adults in healthy relationships do. The solution this book came up with isn't really sustainable unless Gambit is cool with Rogue absorbing his memories anytime she has doubts. Giving his secrecy issues that were not addressed I doubt he would be.

No real trust was built between the two because again Gambit didnt do anything here. Rogue and Lavish solved the problem temporarily but if I am a writer that wants these characters with other people, I can easily justify it since the solution was memory absorption and not mutual trust being built.

[Neko]

Yet again in this thread there is a whiff of “Gambit only” fan is not allowed to have an opinion. When they're doing exactly what everyone else is doing and that is giving an opinion.

It just seems to me that, any time a writer tries to move on from Gambit and Rogue being in a relationship, they do so for months or maybe a year (and usually at the expense of whichever character they are less fond of) and then move to another project. So the next writer that comes along throws them back together, either through choice or editorial mandate. And the circle just repeats when that writer moves on.

I didn't read the Rogue & Gambit mini, because I genuinely have no interest in reading anything else about their relationship. I just don't think there's anything left to say about it, and have felt that way for years. Probably since the end of X-Treme X-Men. Clearly that's not a view shared by Marvel and by a lot of fans.

And that's why this is so problematic for me:

Everything you say here has been true of any book I've seen in the last... decade?... that has them both in it. The only times, for me, that Gambit hasn't felt like an adjunct of Rogue, were when he featured in a book and she didn't. As someone who is a Gambit fan, and not a Rogue fan (I don't hate her. I'm just not interested), this means I'm in a rather awkward position of having to read something I don't like, just to read a story with Gambit in it... or I just don't read at all.

Agreement with all of your view.

Spending money on a character I have no vestment in is unappealing. I did it anyway because, I was curious. I supported through out and I can tell you for a fact. I'll put this away and forget about it.

@R0d - all good. I'm gonna go the route of agree to disagree because Gambit did not progress, he chased and supported Rogue. Thats it for him in the mini. All of it was Rogue's benefit. I don't see what Gambit gained.

If you enjoyed the book because it fed your ship or whatnot, great. Everyone agreed the writing was good as was the art. Those who didn't enjoy it, are allowed to opine their view too.

[JasonEsta]

Let me ask a simple question. Why is this relationship healthy? I still have no idea Gambit's reasons for chasing Rogue when love was not enough for her. Self loathing Gambit still didnt confront Rogue but rather she found out via a memory. Every time she tried to apologize Gambit tried to stop her.

No one wants Rogue on her knees. Gambit still has zero backbone when it comes to Rogue. Rogue is not the problem. Gambit is. Rogue could have refused to apologize but said she wanted to be with him and Gambit would have said yes. So in the end, the apology was not for Gambit's sake but rather for Rogue to appease her own guilt. And that is why Romy doesnt work for me.

I literally wanted Rogue to slap the **** out of Gambit and tell him to stop making excuses for her, STFU and let her apologize. The dude is such a coward around her.

Hahahaha. Someone that can see reality instead of a fan servicing gimmick book with no progression

[Jumpyshark]

Just to try a different tack: I've been thinking about why interpretations among Gambit fans about this mini are so different, and I'm thinking that there are two trains of thought regarding Gambit:

(Bear in mind I'm not saying you can't like both aspects, equally even, so this is just for instructive purposes and I'm also not saying one type of fan is better, but I'm just trying to see if perhaps we can simply demonstrate why there is such a schism between interpretations/desires that the R&G mini highlighted.)

1) Fans who like Gambit as a badass X-Man.

2) Fans who like Gambit as a romantic who also happens to be a capable member of the X-Men.

Thoughts? I'm obviously acknowledging that I'm an equal fan of Gambit and Rogue, and clearly ship them together. I also don't want to seem like I'm ignoring anyone's points, but a lot of the concerns here are so opposite to my take (which is, of course, entirely valid here) that I'm thinking that people connect with Gambit in a very different way to me and honestly, I've said my piece and have no desire to try and convince people further (it was fun to bash out some paragraphs, but I'm done, genuinely no offence or snark intended). I love that he's cool and reasonably powerful, but so long as he's fighting acrobatically and using his powers in cool ways, I'm happy, as I'm less interested in badassery (especially with so many "omega level" - actual and y'know, Batman - characters) compared to seeing Remy be charming and making sexy people blush.

Finally, just to reiterate, I really don't mean this as implying that anyone who prefers Gambit as a badass primarily is anything negative!

[Neko]

Just to try a different tack: I've been thinking about why interpretations among Gambit fans about this mini are so different, and I'm thinking that there are two trains of thought regarding Gambit:

(Bear in mind I'm not saying you can't like both aspects, equally even, so this is just for instructive purposes and I'm also not saying one type of fan is better, but I'm just trying to see if perhaps we can simply demonstrate why there is such a schism between interpretations/desires that the R&G mini highlighted.)

1) Fans who like Gambit as a badass X-Man.

2) Fans who like Gambit as a romantic who also happens to be a capable member of the X-Men.

Thoughts? I'm obviously acknowledging that I'm an equal fan of Gambit and Rogue, and clearly ship them together. I also don't want to seem like I'm ignoring anyone's points, but a lot of the concerns here are so opposite to my take (which is, of course, entirely valid here) that I'm thinking that people connect with Gambit in a very different way to me and honestly, I've said my piece and have no desire to try and convince people further (it was fun to bash out some paragraphs, but I'm done, genuinely no offence or snark intended). I love that he's cool and reasonably powerful, but so long as he's fighting acrobatically and using his powers in cool ways, I'm happy, as I'm less interested in badassery (especially with so many "omega level" - actual and y'know, Batman - characters) compared to seeing Remy be charming and making sexy people blush.

Finally, just to reiterate, I really don't mean this as implying that anyone who prefers Gambit as a badass primarily is anything negative!

Okay, I'll play .... goodness … where to begin.

I like bad ass Gambit. It's my preferred version of him, whether that is influential in helping do whatever objective is or actually being the facilitator to end the issue. I don't mind him as a support character as long as it means something and uses his abilities while keeping his sass and charm.

I do like romantic Gambit but … not with Rogue. I would want to read about him and Polaris, Sage or Jean. In that order actually, but I would want the romance to not belittle him as he has been with Rogue. He is never on equal footing with Rogue ever when in a book with her unless its his book. He is lesser character for Rogue, as long she is getting a boost from him, some don't care, I do. His being with someone else is a new lease on romance for him. In the end, nothing has really changed in his relationship with Rogue. IMO.

My connection to Gambit is he is a survivor. There have been a large number of things that are awful that he has endured, he finds a way to either atone, get through it or toughen up and find a better way to handle the situation. Its my view of him.

In the end though …. I'd rather him be single or in limbo than an attachment to Rogue. I don't want him pining, and I want him actually doing things that don't involve Rogue. Rogue does things all the time that not only don't involve him, she doesn't even give any bananas about him. TBH – she moved on books ago, so going backwards in time for their relationship is unbelievable to me because I would never do that. Its how you view a thing.

Thank you for being polite about it.

[Badou]

A more balanced approach might have been Rogue trying to win Gambit back or take Gambit back herself in the mini. A reverse of what you'd expect. Prove to him that she is ready with him being standoffish and not pushing her. Not being cold towards her but obviously not constantly trying to get her back. That way her coming to terms with herself and the relationship would have a bigger payoff, and from Gambit's side you can see a small arc of him not believing Rogue is ready to believing she is and being open to her again. Instead from issue one all Gambit wanted from the start was for Rogue to take him back and that kind of makes Rogue's development irrelevant to Gambit. Since he would have taken her back even if non of that development happened because he was so desperate to be with her again anyway.

But KT herself didn't do this because she wanted to I think write a more nostalgic dynamic that Romy fans obviously wanted and like, and because she wanted to follow up with what other writers have done with Gambit when he is written with Rogue, which is him pursuing her constantly. So I understand why she wrote what she did. It fit for the type of story she wanted to tell, but at the same time it limited Gambit's potential development.

[remydat]

Eh again I think it is pretty simple. What happened in the book that developed Gambit or allowed him to resolve the relationship?

I hate Romy but if you are going to resolve it then Gambit should play a role in the resolution. Yet he did not convince Rogue. He did not get her to understand how he felt. The resolution came because Rogue and Rogue alone worked things out via Lavish's power.

All the cool fight scenes against subpar enemies doesnt change the fact Gambit had zero involvement in the main objective of the book. We all know the book was designed for Rogue and Gambit to work things out. That didn't happen. Rogue worked things out without Gambit. It is like he is not even a real party to the relationship. Rogue just works things out and makes all the decisions for them.

I dont think it is too much to ask that Rogue choose Gambit because of something he did. Or that Gambit rethink and recommit to Rogue after weighing his own pros and cons. People act like it is unreasonable to want Gambit to be a party to the decisions made in the relationship.

In essence KT came up with a cool way for Rogue to see things from Gambit's point of view but in so doing robbed Gambit of the opportunity to take part in resolving the issues in the relationship. Perfectly fine if some don't care as long as its fun or they are back together. It is just not the reason I read the issues. I read them hoping to see Gambit and Rogue work things out TOGETHER! If they had marketed this as Rogue saves Romy then at least I would have known to not bother reading.

[Dantes617]

Just a thought, but for Gambit moving forward, perhaps being in a (hopefully less angsty) relationship with Rogue could be something positive for his character development. Rogue's not in Red, so we don't have to worry about him only interacting with her. And already being in an established romantic relationship outside of his main book may force writers to use him in other ways and interact with characters differently. This could help tone down his overly flirtatious (some may describe it as "creepy") behavior toward other woman, promote platonic relationships with female teammates without writers being tempted to take it a step too far (i.e., forcibly kissing Polaris), and maybe allow writers to give him a new mature perspective on relationships in general (Jean's going to need all the advice she can get after being dead for a decade). Lemons to lemonade, anyone?

What I'm trying to say is that I totally understand the historical criticism of Gambit being paired with Rogue. And only time will tell whether or not the outcome of R&G is a positive one. Regardless, this is a status quo change for Gambit (***if continuity is upheld***). So, perhaps some good could come of it. If anything, maybe other writers were reminded that Gambit can be fun and competent and will pick up on Kelly's enthusiasm.

[remydat]

Can we add makes his own decisions and not take **** from anyone to fun and competent?