Batman and Robin #37 Preview/Discussion

[RobinFan4880]

I still argue the Grayson book would have been better without the dumb "death" plot. Rather than just have this convoluted mixture of him having to pretend to be dead and the entire world knowing who he is (which lead to nothing really) they could have just had him infiltrate Spyral without all that. I mean I think it is kind of distracting that Spyral knows who he is and that he used to be Nightwing. If Spyral honestly doesn't think he is still working for Batman in some form then they are naive.

Though honestly, I don't think the death plot could have been good even if it was handled better. Since the only reason the death plot existed was to write Dick out of all other ongoing Batman stories so they wouldn't have to deal with the Forever Evil fallout with the entire world knowing who he is. That is the root of the problem. Him getting his identity exposed was handled terribly (in the end no one gave a **** it was exposed anyway) and as a result the death plot was also handled terribly. Johns clearly didn't have a bigger plan for exposing him and only did it as a gimmick to sell his event.

Johns wanted a big reveal in Forever Evil.

No one considered the consequences of that action until well after it had been printed. Nighting #30 was completely drawn, then it was dropped. Tynion was supposed to be writing Nightwing but that was axed. There is a blonde man sitting with the other members of the bat family in Batsgiving. It was probably Dick with bleached hair. The "death" messed up the awesomeness that would have been all three former-Robins going to Apokapolis to save Damian (instead we get Babs (good alternative but not quite right)). The first images of Harper as a super hero were labeled "Nightwing" (red herring? maybe. Who knows).

The death was needless and gimmicky. It was done for the sole purpose of generating buzz.

Having said that, DC took the dud idea and turned it into one of their best comics. So I can't really complain.

[Godlike13]

Tynion was supposed to be writing Nightwing but that was axed. There is a blonde man sitting with the other members of the bat family in Batsgiving. It was probably Dick with bleached hair. The "death" messed up the awesomeness that would have been all three former-Robins going to Apokapolis to save Damian (instead we get Babs (good alternative but not quite right)).

Oh no. Damn that Johns, damn him...

[tako]

Tynion writing Nightwing probably wouldn't have been too good. His writing just...supremely bores more.

[Dzetoun]

Tynion writing Nightwing probably wouldn't have been too good. His writing just...supremely bores more.

Tynion did reasonably well with Talon, particularly the early issues, and some of his creator-owned stuff is quite good. His Batman Eternal scripts have likewise been pretty good, and so are the back-up scripts he does for Snyder. But his RHATO stuff was truly godawful. It seems that he is one of those writers who has to have a deep interest in a character or situation before he can do anything with them. Given that his comments about Dick Grayson were not encouraging (something like being a great guest star but not very adequate as a lead) and he had said publically that Tim Drake was his favorite Robin (while he was still writing Jason Todd, no less), I agree that one wouldn't want him in charge of a Grayson book.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Tynion did reasonably well with Talon, particularly the early issues, and some of his creator-owned stuff is quite good. His Batman Eternal scripts have likewise been pretty good, and so are the back-up scripts he does for Snyder. But his RHATO stuff was truly godawful. It seems that he is one of those writers who has to have a deep interest in a character or situation before he can do anything with them. Given that his comments about Dick Grayson were not encouraging (something like being a great guest star but not very adequate as a lead) and he had said publically that Tim Drake was his favorite Robin (while he was still writing Jason Todd, no less), I agree that one wouldn't want him in charge of a Grayson book.

Tynion also doesn't seem able to avoid adding his own likes into his work regardless if makes sense or not in the context of the work. All the magic stuff he has written is lifted entirely from Supernatural, all the nonsense it was the League arc on RHATO was a poorly retread of Anakin Skywalker's story (plus he did write Jason as Dick), he's also faulty of writing what the fans want and not what is good for the plot.

Oh and Talon went stupid at the end.

[Badou]

Johns wanted a big reveal in Forever Evil.

No one considered the consequences of that action until well after it had been printed. Nighting #30 was completely drawn, then it was dropped. Tynion was supposed to be writing Nightwing but that was axed. There is a blonde man sitting with the other members of the bat family in Batsgiving. It was probably Dick with bleached hair. The "death" messed up the awesomeness that would have been all three former-Robins going to Apokapolis to save Damian (instead we get Babs (good alternative but not quite right)). The first images of Harper as a super hero were labeled "Nightwing" (red herring? maybe. Who knows).

The death was needless and gimmicky. It was done for the sole purpose of generating buzz.

Having said that, DC took the dud idea and turned it into one of their best comics. So I can't really complain.

Well I don't think the death was there to generate buzz. I mean if you just read the comics and didn't follow the interviews and such I don't think you'd realize he is even supposed to be "dead" as it hasn't been addressed. We don't even know how he "died" or how Bruce broke the news to the other heroes. It was introduced to cover up the mistake of his identity being exposed, which was the thing that created buzz. I mean in the first issue of DC's first big event of the New 52 they revealed his identity to the entire world. Instantly he became the most well known/infamous person on Earth. An interesting premise possibly, but Johns didn't have any plans for it and all he cared about was using it as a means to further his Lex story.

Though if we go back to the end of 2013 we were getting those rumors that all the way up until the end of 2013 people in the Batman office weren't sure what Johns was going to do with Dick's character and if he was going to kill him off. It really seems like there was just bad communication between Johns and the Bat office through all this.

[Aioros22]

Bruce knows Dick isn't dead, so im not sure why that is an issue. And its not like Bruce didn't go though the ringer getting Dick back.

Plus Jason knows he's not the favorite. He already went on a rampage about it. Its not really Tomasi's fault they mellowed him out and have him apparently not care about it anymore. Personally i much prefer the Jason that had a bone to pick, but this is the bed they made.

And maybe it`s the best bed to make in the long haul. I much prefer Jason to be written as someone towards adulthood. He and Bruce/Alfred already had their moment where they admited what needed to be admitted. Jason knows Bruces loves him and respects him (RATHO#19) he even admitted as much in return since UDRH. At most there will always be tension, not a real bone to pick at. In order for Jason to be cemented as his own man, they need to move over from UDRH for good. He grew up and he outgrew most of the anger when this reboot started.

That being said, I don`t see Jason as the type to complain in the middle of the job. He may throw (per usual) some sarcasm/snark at Bruce later, like he did after DOFT. He`s good at being Bruce`s conscience in a way.

The rest thought...I refrain myself from any discussion about Batgods and New Gods.

[Godlike13]

An interesting premise possibly, but Johns didn't have any plans for it and all he cared about was using it as a means to further his Lex story.

It was pretty evident Johns had plans for an Owlman/Dick plot line. He just ran out of room.

And it`s the best bed to make in the long haul. I much prefer Jason to be written as someone towards adulthood. He and Bruce/Alfred already had their moment where they admited what needed to be admitted. Jason knows Bruces loves him and respects him (RATHO#19) he even admitted as much in return since UDRH. At most there will always be tension, not any bone to pick at. In order for Jason to be cemented as his own man, they need to move over from UDRH for good. This is the reason I disagree about him being "mellowed out".

He grew up and he outgrew most of the anger when this reboot started. This is nothing new.

No its not. Its boring. It was really only with UTRH that Jason finally became a character of his own, and the further they moved away from it the more Jason has reverted back into being a Dick Grayson stand in.

[Aioros22]

No its not. Its boring. It was really only with UTRH that Jason finally became a character of his own, and the further they moved from it the more Jason has reverted back into being a Dick Grayson stand in.

It worked so well that after UDRH he was already being written stale. I hardly think readers want to read a character that complains about the same issue over and over again.

Jason`s complaint (and valid as it was and I believe it was) was a beginning of his new life, it was to ilustrate what required to be dealt with and was left hanging. And it worked in the beginning, but it`s too one dimensional of a plot hook. Him accepting that some things are out of his control and stop obesessing over Gotham was the best thing they could have done. Jason Todd will always have connections to his family, he`s the stranded brother/son, that`s one aspect of his appeal, but he`s not like Dick or Tim. They don`t do what he does and vice versa.

Want a similar character mood/family? Raphael from the Teenage Mutant Turtles.

Only way UDRH Jason would work on a monthly basis would be in vertigo, written by someone like Garth Ennis or Warren Ellis, where he would make readers wonder if he was "crazy evil" or not, depending the situation, and where he would have killed the Joker in issue#1. Hey, fine with me, but they would never pull that off anyway. What you get in RATHO is close enough: he`s sarcastic, only shows up in major crossovers, travels the world and is a target of every federal organization around because he still kills people (that we know are bad guys). To me, him being civil and or respectfull with family doesn`t override that.

Alas, agree to disagree.

[phonogram12]

And maybe it`s the best bed to make in the long haul. I much prefer Jason to be written as someone towards adulthood. He and Bruce/Alfred already had their moment where they admited what needed to be admitted. Jason knows Bruces loves him and respects him (RATHO#19) he even admitted as much in return since UDRH. At most there will always be tension, not a real bone to pick at. In order for Jason to be cemented as his own man, they need to move over from UDRH for good. He grew up and he outgrew most of the anger when this reboot started.

I agree 100%. Until the new 52, Jason hasn't been worth a damn since they brought him back.

[Dzetoun]

It worked so well that after UDRH he was already being written stale. I hardly think readers want to read a character that complains about the same issue over and over again.

Jason`s complaint (and valid as it was and I believe it was) was a beginning of his new life, it was to ilustrate what required to be dealt with and was left hanging. And it worked in the beginning, but it`s too one dimensional of a plot hook. Him accepting that some things are out of his control and stop obesessing over Gotham was the best thing they could have done. Jason Todd will always have connections to his family, he`s the stranded brother/son, that`s one aspect of his appeal, but he`s not like Dick or Tim. They don`t do what he does and vice versa.

Want a similar character mood/family? Raphael from the Teenage Mutant Turtles.

Only way UDRH Jason would work on a monthly basis would be in vertigo, written by someone like Garth Ennis or Warren Ellis, where he would make readers wonder if he was "crazy evil" or not, depending the situation, and where he would have killed the Joker in issue#1. Hey, fine with me, but they would never pull that off anyway. What you get in RATHO is close enough: he`s sarcastic, only shows up in major crossovers, travels the world and is a target of every federal organization around because he still kills people (that we know are bad guys). To me, him being civil and or respectfull with family doesn`t override that.

Alas, agree to disagree.

UTRH never, unfortunately, got the resolution it really needed, leaving the character floundering. In part, I think that's because Winnick didn't think he was writing the story a lot of people read, in part it was other issues. The New 52 gave them another chance, and there have been fits and starts and yes, some out-and-out hand waving. I think in particular after the scene Tomasi did with Jason and Bruce in Ethiopia you could almost hear the throat-clearing and the "moving right along" noises. But, in the end, there just isn't anywhere to go with UTRH Jason (or really with UTRH Bruce, let's not pretend that Snyder Bruce and Lobdell Bruce and Pak Bruce are the same as Winnick Bruce or Daniel Bruce or Loeb Bruce). It's reconciliation or villainy, and he was already too popular with too many people for villainy to work.

[Badou]

It was pretty evident Johns had plans for an Owlman/Dick plot line. He just ran out of room.

Yeah, but you didn't need to expose Dick's identity to have the Owlman/Dick plot. He only exposed Dick's identity because he wanted to use it as a way for Lex to find out who Bruce was to set up the dynamic between the two of them for his Justice League book. He didn't really care how it impacted Dick.

[Godlike13]

Do u guys think Ra's will make an attempt on Damian's super powered body?

[ispacehead]

Do u guys think Ra's will make an attempt on Damian's super powered body?

Whoomp! °There it is! The next big crossover event.

[ABH]

Tag team, back again!