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  1. #1021
    Amazing Member Deku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    I know you have a gripe with the 90s Flash in general but Mark Waid wrote Barry as good as anyone ever has. He didn't neuter anything. He took a boring Silver Age character and breathed life and purpose and depth that wasn't there into him. I don't see how you could possibly read Born To Run, Chain Lightning, or The Life Story of The Flash and say Waid neutered Barry. Waid is the one who did all of the work establishing Barry as this all time great person. His best story and the best Flash story ever is literally about how monumental a task and accomplishment it was just for Wally to live up to Barry's stature -- how being an equal to Barry is the greatest accomplishment of his lifetime. If that's neutered to you I wonder what you think is an unneutered Barry.
    Barry wasn't boring in the Silver Age and he had plenty of life and purpose and depth. That's the thing, Barry died saving the world so Waid made Barry into a saint instead of a proper character. He neutered him by writing him in a way that made him boring and bland and he got rid of the characters wit and most of his personality. This is also true when he wrote Barry when he was alive like in Waid's Flash and Green Lantern: The Brave and the Bold.
    Last edited by Deku; 07-08-2018 at 06:39 AM.
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  2. #1022
    Astonishing Member liwanag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yonekunih View Post
    Any Barry fans out there? I read comments about the Flash's latest issue and see a lots of Wally's fans while Barry almost gets no supporters- which makes me incredibly sad. I mean I love both but how underrated Barry is upsets me so much, even his appreciation thread is so small
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  3. #1023
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Barry was never much of a smart ass. He was very matter of fact. Flash Facts were usually about him either telling a science lesson or wrapping up the moral of the story, it was rarely a witty repartee. Wally was usually the sarcastic smart alek, even in his original Teen Titans days, but especially in his Flash and JL days. His sense of humor was primarily situational puns for the longest time, until he started emulating Wally after his return. Less a smart ass and more just smart -- a know it all, but less to brag and more because he liked teaching.

    Barry's responsible and well meaning. He's always looking out for the greater good and trying to help others, be it by being a hero or giving them advice (it's why he pairs so well with Hal Jordan, a man with questionable decision making skills who needs someone to rein him in a bit). Grounded and moral, and will always take time out of his life to help others. It's how he finds himself accidentally leading the JL in JLA Year One, being best buds with Hal, raising Wally alongside Iris, etc. Barry is very similar to Superman in that his whole point is he's there to save the day and he doesn't let you down, even until the very end, but without any of the Messianic qualities of Clark. He's not the last survivor of a forlorn race sent from the heavens to rescue mankind, he's your next door neighbor who runs into a burning building to get you out. He just also happened to get superpowers that let him do that easily.

    I will admit a lot of these qualities are me projecting what Wally sees (and what we see through Wally's run) in Barry onto Barry, but it holds true through those stories I mentioned and I liked him all the more for it. But writers have an issue writing wholesome good guys, and Barry literally defines the silver age which is the era of wholesome good guys (and insanely wacky cover hijinks). So we get people taking Barry's hyperactive sense of responsibility and using that to put him in situations where he screws everything up by taking on every burden he sees. I get the idea, but hate the tone and execution, I suppose. Extrapolating what was more a gag (him always being late because he's always taking on responsibility) into a travesty.

    These qualities aren't new, either. It's basically what happened in the Bronze Age, where they'd throw Barry in shock situation after shock situation to try to liven up a stale book and separate him from all of his previous ties (Killing Iris, crippling Wally, the trial etc). But darkening up a wholesome hero failed then and that's what ushered in Wally's era (where, amusingly, he stood out as a more optimistic and wholesome hero in the era of broody anti heroes and ultra violence of the 90s). There's a lot of irony in repeating the same thing and pretending it's evolving the character. We're a couple of months removed from Barry getting to the point he started his career at (being together with Iris). 10 years to get back to 1956

    All of that said, take most of what I say with a grain of salt. Just try to find The Life Story of The Flash and read that. That's who I think Barry is, and that's the best version of him I've seen yet and I don't know if my description is doing it justice. It's a too little known book for how good and definitive it is for such a popular character.
    Great analysis, Dred.

    To get a good grip on Barry's characterization, present-day FLASH writers should reexamine Cary Bates' long Bronze Age run from 1970-1985.

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  4. #1024
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deku View Post
    Barry wasn't boring in the Silver Age and he had plenty of life and purpose and depth. That's the thing, Barry died saving the world so Waid made Barry into a saint instead of a proper character. He neutered him by writing him in a way that made him boring and bland and he got rid of the characters wit and most of his personality. This is also true when he wrote Barry when he was alive like in Waid's Flash and Green Lantern: The Brave and the Bold.
    Exactly, it shows you how much my generation almost completely worships the Waid run. It was great writing for Wally, but Waid clearly wrote Barry into a corner and the way HE thought Barry should be. As a result that is how certain fans in my generation or younger think of Barry as well... or how he should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    Great analysis, Dred.

    To get a good grip on Barry's characterization, present-day FLASH writers should reexamine Cary Bates' long Bronze Age run from 1970-1985.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    That characterization is what motivated Weisman's Young Justice Barry... and many love that version. Some Wally fans even claim that he is being written like Wally... which Weisman himself clearly dismissed as crazy.

  5. #1025
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deku View Post
    Barry wasn't boring in the Silver Age and he had plenty of life and purpose and depth. That's the thing, Barry died saving the world so Waid made Barry into a saint instead of a proper character. He neutered him by writing him in a way that made him boring and bland and he got rid of the characters wit and most of his personality. This is also true when he wrote Barry when he was alive like in Waid's Flash and Green Lantern: The Brave and the Bold.
    Again, have you read The Life Story of The Flash? That is Waid's swan song on Barry. It is a comic that has minimally to do with Wally and I've never seen a retrospective piece treat a character better.

    Waid had everyone else treat Barry like a saint, see him like that, because of what he did. When Waid wrote Barry as a person he was far from perfect. Just a wholesome and great man who did his best. And that's the core of Silver Age Barry, just written with more tuned modern sensibilities.
    Last edited by Dred; 07-08-2018 at 09:31 AM.

  6. #1026
    Amazing Member Deku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Again, have you read The Life Story of The Flash? That is Waid's swan song on Barry. It is a comic that has minimally to do with Wally and I've never seen a retrospective piece treat a character better.

    Waid had everyone else treat Barry like a saint, see him like that, because of what he did. When Waid wrote Barry as a person he was far from perfect. Just a wholesome and great man who did his best. And that's the core of Silver Age Barry, just written with more tuned modern sensibilities.
    Barry wasn't a saint and when he wrote him like that, he glossed over some of Barry's other character traits. Barry was a great man who did his best, but Waid writing that part of the character correctly does not excuse him missing the mark on most of the other pars of his personality. And that is why he is seen as being "boring" because Waid did not write the rest of Barry's personality correctly.
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  7. #1027
    Amazing Member Deku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashEarthOne View Post
    Exactly, it shows you how much my generation almost completely worships the Waid run. It was great writing for Wally, but Waid clearly wrote Barry into a corner and the way HE thought Barry should be. As a result that is how certain fans in my generation or younger think of Barry as well... or how he should be.
    Bingo. You hit the nail on the head.
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  8. #1028
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deku View Post
    Bingo. You hit the nail on the head.
    I'd put heavy emphasis on "certain fans" who are a vocal minority... also further emphasis on "how he should be." Waid himself said that "Barry was a stiff." He sure wasn't that way when written by Weisman who based his Barry on Bates' run.

    Barry needs his own "Mark Waid." Williamson, while better than the previous writers seems too influenced by Waid.
    Last edited by FlashEarthOne; 07-08-2018 at 10:59 AM.

  9. #1029
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deku View Post
    Barry wasn't boring in the Silver Age and he had plenty of life and purpose and depth. That's the thing, Barry died saving the world so Waid made Barry into a saint instead of a proper character. He neutered him by writing him in a way that made him boring and bland and he got rid of the characters wit and most of his personality. This is also true when he wrote Barry when he was alive like in Waid's Flash and Green Lantern: The Brave and the Bold.
    I thought Waid's Barry was pretty fun in The Brave and the Bold mini. He and Hal really bounced off each other well and I think the stories and characterization were pretty true to Barry's character .
    Quote Originally Posted by FlashEarthOne View Post
    Exactly, it shows you how much my generation almost completely worships the Waid run. It was great writing for Wally, but Waid clearly wrote Barry into a corner and the way HE thought Barry should be. As a result that is how certain fans in my generation or younger think of Barry as well... or how he should be.
    I don't know if I'd say Waid really wrote Barry into a corner. He wrote a Barry in the context of how Wally viewed him, since it was Wally's book, while still acknowledging the hero Barry was.

    I think if anything the real way Barry was written into a corner was in how definitive the Waid and Johns Flash runs Wally became as far as defining what people's idea of the Flash and his stories are.
    That characterization is what motivated Weisman's Young Justice Barry... and many love that version. Some Wally fans even claim that he is being written like Wally... which Weisman himself clearly dismissed as crazy.
    Every modern interpretation of Barry gets accused of being like Wally.

    Although sometimes that's more deserved then others, like the TV show giving Barry Wally's villains or girlfriend.
    Quote Originally Posted by FlashEarthOne View Post
    Barry needs his own "Mark Waid." Williamson, while better than the previous writers seems too influenced by Waid.
    I think it's pretty clear in looking at Williamson's run as a whole that his biggest influences are both Waid and Johns' Flash runs.

  10. #1030
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Every modern interpretation of Barry gets accused of being like Wally.

    Although sometimes that's more deserved then others, like the TV show giving Barry Wally's villains or girlfriend.
    Any Flash who gets his own show or movie will be an amalgamation of the others in some ways. Had Wally been the star instead, he would be just as "guilty" of taking things from Barry, Jay, etc.
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  11. #1031
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deku View Post
    Barry wasn't a saint and when he wrote him like that, he glossed over some of Barry's other character traits. Barry was a great man who did his best, but Waid writing that part of the character correctly does not excuse him missing the mark on most of the other pars of his personality. And that is why he is seen as being "boring" because Waid did not write the rest of Barry's personality correctly.
    What I believe Waid did was take the Barry from the Silver Age (who resembled every other superhero of that era) and ignored the more nuanced Bronze Age Barry (despite having more stories written about that version than the other). Now it doesn't make what Waid wrote bad in any which way, but I agree it wasn't the complete Barry Allen.
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  12. #1032
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    What I believe Waid did was take the Barry from the Silver Age (who resembled every other superhero of that era) and ignored the more nuanced Bronze Age Barry (despite having more stories written about that version than the other). Now it doesn't make what Waid wrote bad in any which way, but I agree it wasn't the complete Barry Allen.
    Interesting. I never thought of it that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post

    Every modern interpretation of Barry gets accused of being like Wally.

    Although sometimes that's more deserved then others, like the TV show giving Barry Wally's villains or girlfriend.

    I think it's pretty clear in looking at Williamson's run as a whole that his biggest influences are both Waid and Johns' Flash runs.
    It isn't done by everyone. But it is consistently done by the same people. Which not surprisingly are usually the same "Barry is boring" zealots.

    I am very much enjoying Williamson's run so far, but I still would have rather that they put a writer on the book who wanted to focus on developing Barry. Williamson seems more like a Waid fan who wanted to write the Flash but was told he had to write Barry.

  13. #1033
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Any Flash who gets his own show or movie will be an amalgamation of the others in some ways. Had Wally been the star instead, he would be just as "guilty" of taking things from Barry, Jay, etc.
    True, it does go both ways.

    Just look at what the DCAU did when we finally got to see Wally out-of-costume. He was a forensic scientist just like Barry.

  14. #1034
    Amazing Member Deku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I thought Waid's Barry was pretty fun in The Brave and the Bold mini. He and Hal really bounced off each other well and I think the stories and characterization were pretty true to Barry's character .
    I can't say that I agree. Barry was boring in the Brave and the Bold mini and his only purpose was to be the straight-Man to Waid's Hal.
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  15. #1035
    Amazing Member Deku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    What I believe Waid did was take the Barry from the Silver Age (who resembled every other superhero of that era) and ignored the more nuanced Bronze Age Barry (despite having more stories written about that version than the other). Now it doesn't make what Waid wrote bad in any which way, but I agree it wasn't the complete Barry Allen.
    I disagree.
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