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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I've never understood why preferring the company of normal humans to such an extent is necessary to prove his love of Earth and its people and to prove that he indeed has a strong "human" side in regards to behavior, social conventions, etc. Its ridiculous to me. Having superhuman friends as well or a superhuman lover does not automatically lessen the love he has for his adopted planet nor does it lessen his "human" cred. If anything it adds to him. Going the route you suggest, having these caveats that he must have a human lover or he must vastly prefer all his human friends to any of his superhuman friends...that's when the character not only gets bogged down in pointless rules but also begins to lose appeal. He's Superman, he's supposed to balance the normal and fantastical, but somewhere along the line (in my opinion the result of taking good ideas like the Lois and Clark show and Smallville, which were designed as a special side of the telling of the myth by focusing more on Clark Kent, and going too far and starting to apply it to everything) this goofy unwritten rule was made that the human side had to dominate; that the Man was what was to be the focus at nearly all times. The New 52 has fixed it somewhat, thankfully, but the fact that's not the way Superman has to be is a notion that'll die hard with some writers, I'm sure.
    I never put anything like "vastly prefer all his human friends" or suggest he should not have super human friends at all. I simply suggested I preferred the take which made it obvious that reporting and peoples characters were more important to him than the glamour of super heroics. Put it this way...having a secret identity makes no sense at all unless his love of the day job is profound.

    By all means explain why you prefer another take to one I do... I understand we all have different preferences... but if you want to specifically argue about what somebody has put, its hardly sensible to completely distort their stance.

  2. #62
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    You said him having a lot of superhuman friends or a superhuman lover made the character lose a lot of who he is. I believe the opposite, and did explain it, that focusing too much on the human side is what makes the character lose a lot, as it feeds into to the old post-Crisis habit of having his powers and Kryptonian side be seen more of a burden than something he enjoys and is proud to be just as much as his adopted status of Earthling. I'll acknowledge you didn't specifically say you didn't want him having any superhuman friends at all, and take that back, but you do seem to have a distaste for him regarding the superhero community on any equal footing to that of his human guise (an opinion of which you have every right to), so in that vein I don't feel I distorted anything.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 01-06-2015 at 03:27 AM.

  3. #63
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    You said him having a lot of superhuman friends or a superhuman lover made the character lose a lot of who he is. I believe the opposite, and did explain it, that focusing too much on the human side is what makes the character lose a lot, as it feeds into to the old post-Crisis habit of having his powers and Kryptonian side be seen more of a burden than something he enjoys and is proud to be just as much as his adopted status of Earthling. I'll acknowledge you didn't specifically say you didn't want him having any superhuman friends at all, and take that back, but you do seem to have a distaste for him regarding the superhero community on any equal footing to that of his human guise (an opinion of which you have every right to), so in that vein I don't feel I distorted anything.
    I think the key is for writers to show a balance--invest quality and quantity time on showing Superman engaging with his human life and loved ones. If stories spend most of the time with him hanging out with his superfriends and engaging with new super characters like Ulysses instead of the other side of his life, but still want to suggest that Superman has "best friends" like Lois who are human and has a civilian job that he loves, then it doesn't work; it's not believable. So, I believe when it's said that having superfriends and a superlover detract from Superman's human side, it's not meant to say that he literally becomes less "human" but rather the stories themselves give readers less of an insight into that side of him and therefore less of an investment in that side of him. Love is something that has to be demonstrated. It's an action. For readers to buy into Superman's humanity, we have to see it. Moreover, like the 6 years of French I took in high school through college, if you don't use something you lose it or it becomes less second nature to you. The less one sees (seeing, not just reading references to) Superman engaging in human life and forming loving connections with humans--opening up to them about his secret if he's close enough to them to love them (platonically and/or romantically) and trust them--then one gets the impression of Superman as detached.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkKnightReturns View Post
    Not sure, but I think DC may have other plans for Steve Trevor. Lest face it, he is pretty much useless in the Wonderverse now. He works better as an ARGUS agent who has connections to various DC heroes and villains. At least, Lois Lane can still works in the Superverse as a journalist, political figure in Metropolis. Steve really needs to go outside for his own sake. He can do so much outside the Wonderverse when you think about it. He did save the President after all.
    Steve is not useless on wonderverse because he is not dating WW, he still can be a friend and ally. For me steve is a dynamic character that can work in many setting.=s. If DC has plans for him, I don't know what they are waiting. ARGUS had a good plot for being developped after forever evil, but nothing wasn't done. He just warming up until smww breaks up; so they will let him be and do something

    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    I never put anything like "vastly prefer all his human friends" or suggest he should not have super human friends at all. I simply suggested I preferred the take which made it obvious that reporting and peoples characters were more important to him than the glamour of super heroics. Put it this way...having a secret identity makes no sense at all unless his love of the day job is profound.

    By all means explain why you prefer another take to one I do... I understand we all have different preferences... but if you want to specifically argue about what somebody has put, its hardly sensible to completely distort their stance.
    Yeah I agree. Superman always had superpowered friends, but his human side was never neglected. Everybody says that lois never liked Clark, only superman. So in new 52 she is interested in him and clarks run away of her, no because he doesn't like her. But because she is human and his parents are dead, and he can lose her and all that angst. so he hook ups with a superpowered woman, because is easier. superman ran away from his humanity, and what a character assassination dude. Superman is stronger than this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    She has an established friendship with Superman. No its not been expanded upon or visited much in the present-day comics but it IS established history between the two (Morrison's Action run, Perez's Superman run). So she's not like thousands of other journalists when it comes to him. To the world, they have a link, just like always. Pak's hardly doing any stretching of the imagination to have Lois be a possible target of this assassin. And even if she is just bait, knowing Pak and his work with Superman and his family, it'll probably be the best showing Lois has had yet.

    In fact, that's probably the best answer to this question. Get Lois and Jimmy back on track by having Greg Pak do something with them, as he's the top Superman guy by a wide margin right now.
    Morrison stuff was much more with Clark than superman and it was 5 years ago. a lot of things change in that time frame. IDK about perez, I will check it out later, but it seemed much more with clark too. And there wasn't follow up. So is very little to say that she has a strong relationship with Superman; other people say the same even my friend that review superman books.
    Just because she wrote a article? just like many other journalists? it's really jump the shark

    Pak is not the superman top writer, that is Johns. I think he is much more interested on lana and Steel than on Lois.
    Last edited by Blacksun; 01-06-2015 at 01:24 PM.

  5. #65
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    That it was 5 years ago doesn't matter. There's a history there still, that's all that matters. Thus it still makes sense for Lois to be a potential target and thus Batman's plan makes sense. All I know is a bunch of other journalists didn't have their picture taken sitting on Superman's shoulder for the front page of their stories.

    And in terms of ability, characterization, and story, yeah Pak is the top Superman writer. His name isn't bigger than Johns' of course but Action still blows Superman away (not to say I'm not enjoying Johns' run thus far...Its just not Action).
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 01-06-2015 at 02:00 PM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    Yes, didn't know how much I liked parts of old Silver age set-up until they were gone.

    To me the Perry White boss, Jimmy Olsen best friend, Lois Lane closest colleague/ love spoke volumes about Clark/ Superman's own character and values. Here was somebody with the powers of a god...who because of his upbringing...knew he had to use those powers to help others. But deep down it was the day job of reporting that he loved, and he preferred hanging out with his fellow workers to hanging out with other super characters.

    Once you make his "main" friends/ love interest other super characters... for me a lot of the character/ personality that made him what he was is lost.
    Yeah that's an angle to approach things for sure. An alien god that wants to be a normal man; it's ironic, subversive, a touch poetic. But is there a market for it, is it something the GA is interested in?

    For the last 8 years or so Marvel has been shaping the public viewpoint on how the modern superhero should be through their dominance on the silver screen. What you're describing is pretty much in complete conflict with what Marvel has depicted as the ideal superhero of the 21st century and by relation what most people expect when they think of a superhero. Marvel superhero's don't desire normality rather they thrive in their special qualities and save the day with a smile on their face. I just think this might be a hard sell in today's market when playing in the big leagues.
    "That was some good ass Tekken" - Tasty Steve

  7. #67
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    Poor Lois and Jimmy. This is one of those rare things in comics that actually drives me up the wall. Lois Lane isn't a primary supporting character, she's a secondary lead. She's the female lead in a two-actor show.

    I'll ignore my backlog of arguments for why she should be romantically entangled with Superman - that's tertiary stuff. But just because she's not Superman's girlfriend or wife doesn't mean she shouldn't almost have a bigger role in the comics than he does as far as driving the story. Because she is a better reporter, a person Clark idealizes, and one of his best friends.

    They tend to get this right in other-media. Lois is very obviously the co-lead in Man of Steel, whatever your feelings on the flick, and Amy Adams is a formidable woman in it. Once you get to Metropolis in The Motion Picture, it becomes the Lois show with Gidder chewing scenery. And obviously the wit and work Dana Delaney brought to Lois sells the whole Superman Animated. Lois & Clark LEADS with Lois's name. Even Smallville had a killer Lois.

    So the comics? What's the dilemma? I thought she and Jim had a good showing in Morrison's Action run even as that was redefining the early levels of friendly familiarity between the young reporters. Lois certainly always found herself in the center of the scoop, like she's got a super-power of being in the right place at the right time.

    Jimmy's a tougher sell, ironically. I'm a fan of how the reduced age gap between Jim and Clark means that they're genuine pals now, and I like the roommate thing a lot. Those elements are fine, but what they've been downplaying is his guts. Superman is the Ultimate Hero. Lois Lane is the Ultimate Journalist. Jimmy Olsen is the Ultimate Photographer. At this point they should highlight at least once or twice an issue that he's willing to go anywhere, stand anywhere, to get the best photo to represent Lois's story. We should also see him using photo evidence to help her put together facts. Actually take him seriously. Simultaneously, we should never forget the popularity or charm of Jimmy's roots - there should always be the danger of Jim getting caught up in some Kirby-level weirdness. That was DC's best selling comic for a reason, and "Jimmy's Big Week" a few years back captured that, so no reason somebody else couldn't now.


    Elsewhere I've certainly suggested a Superman Weekly title to capitalize on that Batman Eternal style goodness, where we could really see Lois and Jimmy and Perry cut loose, and guys like Bibbo and so on. A nice place not just for weekly superheroics and "slice of life: Metropolis" style shenanigans, but a long form journalism story that opens up a nice conspiracy or three and builds to something.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    That it was 5 years ago doesn't matter. There's a history there still, that's all that matters. Thus it still makes sense for Lois to be a potential target and thus Batman's plan makes sense. All I know is a bunch of other journalists didn't have their picture taken sitting on Superman's shoulder for the front page of their stories.

    And in terms of ability, characterization, and story, yeah Pak is the top Superman writer. His name isn't bigger than Johns' of course but Action still blows Superman away (not to say I'm not enjoying Johns' run thus far...Its just not Action).
    5 years friendshipes are undone, marriages are undone, many things happen. I saw that there was a picture of lois with superman from 5 years before but it still doesn't say she is so special that someone will kidnap or kill her. perez even tried to tease that there was a strong thing between lois and superman but didn't cared to explain. For his issues it was mostly admiration. These things hardly would put her in any danger.

    I think that both pak and johns are on the same level now. I really don't see nothing so great about pak writing, is almost childish with so many though boxes explaining everything. Good writer but nothing that really impress me. johns uses the art to communicate, much better result even awful pace;

    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    Yeah that's an angle to approach things for sure. An alien god that wants to be a normal man; it's ironic, subversive, a touch poetic. But is there a market for it, is it something the GA is interested in?

    For the last 8 years or so Marvel has been shaping the public viewpoint on how the modern superhero should be through their dominance on the silver screen. What you're describing is pretty much in complete conflict with what Marvel has depicted as the ideal superhero of the 21st century and by relation what most people expect when they think of a superhero. Marvel superhero's don't desire normality rather they thrive in their special qualities and save the day with a smile on their face. I just think this might be a hard sell in today's market when playing in the big leagues.
    Well Thor and jane is a good example. the theme of marvels movies are "outsider/normal guy do his best to find their special place on the world. believe in your potential", many aren't even born with powers: stark, natasha, captain, hawkeye, ant-man. Hard to apply the same thing with different kind of characters and universe. Spider man one of the most popular heroes has a very common life btw

    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    Poor Lois and Jimmy. This is one of those rare things in comics that actually drives me up the wall. Lois Lane isn't a primary supporting character, she's a secondary lead. She's the female lead in a two-actor show.

    I'll ignore my backlog of arguments for why she should be romantically entangled with Superman - that's tertiary stuff. But just because she's not Superman's girlfriend or wife doesn't mean she shouldn't almost have a bigger role in the comics than he does as far as driving the story. Because she is a better reporter, a person Clark idealizes, and one of his best friends.

    They tend to get this right in other-media. Lois is very obviously the co-lead in Man of Steel, whatever your feelings on the flick, and Amy Adams is a formidable woman in it. Once you get to Metropolis in The Motion Picture, it becomes the Lois show with Gidder chewing scenery. And obviously the wit and work Dana Delaney brought to Lois sells the whole Superman Animated. Lois & Clark LEADS with Lois's name. Even Smallville had a killer Lois.

    So the comics? What's the dilemma? I thought she and Jim had a good showing in Morrison's Action run even as that was redefining the early levels of friendly familiarity between the young reporters. Lois certainly always found herself in the center of the scoop, like she's got a super-power of being in the right place at the right time.
    word. There is so good examples of lois on many medias but comics keep failing. I really can't understand it
    Last edited by Blacksun; 01-06-2015 at 09:11 PM.

  9. #69
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    5 years friendshipes are undone, marriages are undone, many things happen. I saw that there was a picture of lois with superman from 5 years before but it still doesn't say she is so special that someone will kidnap or kill her. perez even tried to tease that there was a strong thing between lois and superman but didn't cared to explain. For his issues it was mostly admiration. These things hardly would put her in any danger.
    Yes, those things would indeed be more than enough to put her in danger if you've been reading the arc and understand what this villain is. A madman who just wants to hurt Superman via hurting anyone he's known to care for or to have helped before. That's it. Doesn't matter if its the closest person in the world to him or just someone he helped out one time. If he cares for you or ever has cared for you, you're in trouble, that's this villain's MO. The story has clearly and explicitly explained this. Thus Lois is a perfectly viable target.

    I think that both pak and johns are on the same level now. I really don't see nothing so great about pak writing, is almost childish with so many though boxes explaining everything. Good writer but nothing that really impress me. johns uses the art to communicate, much better result even awful pace;
    He gets Superman better than anyone since Morrison, that's what's so great about it. And he manages to use the New 52 status quo to his and the character's benefit completely; he doesn't just ignore it and write the post-Crisis Superman like Snyder and Jurgens, or go over-the-top with his old-school aggressiveness like Lobdell had a tendency to do at times. He gets the core of Superman, but also gets this is a different incarnation from the one before 2011.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 01-06-2015 at 10:01 PM.

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksun View Post
    Steve is not useless on wonderverse because he is not dating WW, he still can be a friend and ally. For me steve is a dynamic character that can work in many setting.=s. If DC has plans for him, I don't know what they are waiting. ARGUS had a good plot for being developped after forever evil, but nothing wasn't done. He just warming up until smww breaks up; so they will let him be and do something
    Sorry Steve Trevor is kinda useless and irrelevant in the Wonderverse. DC did a number in him for decades now. At least, I can picture Lois Lane being useful and relevant in the Superverse since she has many options to work inside Superman world without being his girlfriend/wife. Steve at the other end no. Especially since that Zod incident where Wonder Woman refused to listen to Steve advices regarding the details of Zod imprisonment. They are definitely not on the same page and his character suffers everytime WW shows up or mention in his life in the New 52.

    Steve Trevor just does not work in this Wonderverse. But at least the New 52 gave him options to work in a broader DC universe so I say lest use those options. Steve works so well as being this devoted military guy to his mission. Time to give the character a clear purpose and its clear to me that Steve can only find his true purpose in the larger DC universe. The Wonderverse is done for him.
    Last edited by TheDarkKnightReturns; 01-07-2015 at 06:56 AM.

  11. #71
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    Well anyways getting back on topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    Jimmy's a tougher sell, ironically. I'm a fan of how the reduced age gap between Jim and Clark means that they're genuine pals now, and I like the roommate thing a lot. Those elements are fine, but what they've been downplaying is his guts. Superman is the Ultimate Hero. Lois Lane is the Ultimate Journalist. Jimmy Olsen is the Ultimate Photographer. At this point they should highlight at least once or twice an issue that he's willing to go anywhere, stand anywhere, to get the best photo to represent Lois's story. We should also see him using photo evidence to help her put together facts. Actually take him seriously. Simultaneously, we should never forget the popularity or charm of Jimmy's roots - there should always be the danger of Jim getting caught up in some Kirby-level weirdness. That was DC's best selling comic for a reason, and "Jimmy's Big Week" a few years back captured that, so no reason somebody else couldn't now.


    Elsewhere I've certainly suggested a Superman Weekly title to capitalize on that Batman Eternal style goodness, where we could really see Lois and Jimmy and Perry cut loose, and guys like Bibbo and so on. A nice place not just for weekly superheroics and "slice of life: Metropolis" style shenanigans, but a long form journalism story that opens up a nice conspiracy or three and builds to something.
    Yeah I liked this idea too, with Jimmy no longer being the junior to Lois and Clark but instead a peer and it kind of made them like the three amigos or a classic trio. But Johns doesn't seem to be as much of a fan of the concept and has started going back on it which I think just does more damage than good. If Jimmy is suppose to be Superman's pal then he needs to be in Superman's age range and we need to see why they would ever connect in the first place. The whole idea with Clark and Bruce was that they come from very different backgrounds and have different attitudes but hold the same values in the end. The relationship between Superman and Jimmy needs a hook like that.
    "That was some good ass Tekken" - Tasty Steve

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Yes, those things would indeed be more than enough to put her in danger if you've been reading the arc and understand what this villain is. A madman who just wants to hurt Superman via hurting anyone he's known to care for or to have helped before. That's it. Doesn't matter if its the closest person in the world to him or just someone he helped out one time. If he cares for you or ever has cared for you, you're in trouble, that's this villain's MO. The story has clearly and explicitly explained this. Thus Lois is a perfectly viable target.


    He gets Superman better than anyone since Morrison, that's what's so great about it. And he manages to use the New 52 status quo to his and the character's benefit completely; he doesn't just ignore it and write the post-Crisis Superman like Snyder and Jurgens, or go over-the-top with his old-school aggressiveness like Lobdell had a tendency to do at times. He gets the core of Superman, but also gets this is a different incarnation from the one before 2011.
    I have been reading the arc, but that way the list would be much bigger of that was the case. The villain MO is all crazy. The previous villain also attacked lois because of the strong bond of Lois and Superman. It gets to repetitive at this point. Seems more like a reason to not tell his secret to her or something like this

    new 52 superman is meh, so for me post crisis well written serve me very well

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkKnightReturns View Post
    Sorry Steve Trevor is kinda useless and irrelevant in the Wonderverse. DC did a number in him for decades now. At least, I can picture Lois Lane being useful and relevant in the Superverse since she has many options to work inside Superman world without being his girlfriend/wife. Steve at the other end no. Especially since that Zod incident where Wonder Woman refused to listen to Steve advices regarding the details of Zod imprisonment. They are definitely not on the same page and his character suffers everytime WW shows up or mention in his life in the New 52.

    Steve Trevor just does not work in this Wonderverse. But at least the New 52 gave him options to work in a broader DC universe so I say lest use those options. Steve works so well as being this devoted military guy to his mission. Time to give the character a clear purpose and its clear to me that Steve can only find his true purpose in the larger DC universe. The Wonderverse is done for him.
    Steve is a special agent, with room full of mystical and antigue artefacts and weapons. How this not fit Wonder Verse? He can be the cameron chase to wonder woman. He can help her fight monsters, acccess government intelligence. There's alot that can be done. Turned out that Steve really had a place to put superpowered beings, that was the writer prping up superman at the cost of WW and steve characters. he still have place on wonderverse and in the larger DCU
    Last edited by Blacksun; 01-07-2015 at 04:11 PM.

  13. #73
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    I'm just kind of curious of what's the average age of people who rank Jimmy Olsen in their top 5 of comic book characters. I have to admit my interest in the character has waned throughout the past few decades, and I might fall into the category of fans who'll only miss Jimmy if he were permanently gone, e.g. written out of continuity or somehow his the rights to use the character were taken away from DC and WB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksun View Post
    Steve is a special agent, with room full of mystical and antigue artefacts and weapons. How this not fit Wonder Verse? He can be the cameron chase to wonder woman. He can help her fight monsters, acccess government intelligence. There's alot that can be done. Turned out that Steve really had a place to put superpowered beings, that was the writer prping up superman at the cost of WW and steve characters. he still have place on wonderverse and in the larger DCU
    Wonder Woman has another guy in hell or whatever already providing her with various weapons and artefacts. Lest face it, DC made Steve Trevor useless in the Wonderverse so that Superman can take his place. You need to deal it and accept it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkKnightReturns View Post
    Wonder Woman has another guy in hell or whatever already providing her with various weapons and artefacts. Lest face it, DC made Steve Trevor useless in the Wonderverse so that Superman can take his place. You need to deal it and accept it.
    why depend on a God? also he doesn't has the variety of artefacts like Trevor ahs or access to secret data that Steve has. DC didn't made him useless, they just banned him from the book and from being her boyfriend. It's offtopic, PM if want to talk more about this
    Last edited by Blacksun; 01-07-2015 at 06:58 PM.

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