Should the Superman books include Gods of Mythology like Wonder Woman, Thor?

[Jim Kelly]

Allegory is a tricky business. I'm not sure it would have been a good idea for ROCKET ROBIN HOOD to hang out with the Robin Hood of legend--they might compare notes and realize how oddly similar their worlds were. But maybe Americans don't know about ROCKET ROBIN HOOD (it was a Canadian cartoon show, I used to watch religiously--but maybe folks in the States never saw it).

Well, how about Quality's Joe Hercules--who debuted in HIT COMICS No. 1 (July '40)? "He didn't come from another planet . . . he wasn't made by a mad scientist or by some other fantastic manner . . . He's a real American youth, born in the north woods and imbued with the greatest strength mortal man ever possessed . . . " There's an obvious allegory to the Hercules of myth, but I think that analogy would fall apart if mythic Hercules entered the picture.

Superman was created to be like Samson, Hercules, Moses--but in an allegorical way--not in the genuine way that Captain Marvel got his powers from Hercules, Solomon, Atlas and their buddies.

Once Superman was an established legend in his own right, he did meet up with Hercules and Samson, but by that time Superman was the most popular super-hero in the world. Moreover, the mythic world in the Superman universe was specific to that universe. Superman had his own version of Atlantis and Amazons that were different from what was seen in Aquaman and Wonder Woman stories. The Hercules and Circe in the '60s Superman adventures were supporting characters of his mythology. He wasn't a supporting character in theirs.

Jack Kirby's Fourth World is an odd Super-Duck. There's an intentional clash of motifs in this Kirby work. Mash-ups of science and myth, ancient symbols and modern symbols. A lot of the energy is drawn from that weird juxtapositioniing. Orion is named after the original Orion--is he meant to be a reincarnation? There are characters named Lightray, Amazing Grace, Fastbak, Mark Moonrider, Desaad, Steppenwolf. It's hard to figure out how we're supposed to read this allegory.

I think the Fourth World has always had an uncomfortable position in the DCU, because it works according to a different set of rules. It doesn't easily fit either into the science fiction worlds of Superman and Green Lantern or in the mythical worlds of Wonder Woman and the Sandman.

[Ascended]

I think the Fourth World has always had an uncomfortable position in the DCU, because it works according to a different set of rules. It doesn't easily fit either into the science fiction worlds of Superman and Green Lantern or in the mythical worlds of Wonder Woman and the Sandman.

As I understand it, the New Gods were never meant to be this long-lasting either. Kirby told their story, and it was meant to have a definitive ending, not get dragged into the larger DCU for the rest of time and trapped in the amber of status quo.

But the fact that the New Gods dont quite fit with any other franchise's mythology is one of the things I like about them. They are very much their own thing while still being tied tangentially to the likes of Superman and Wonder Woman, and I can accept their inclusion in the larger DCU just by accepting the idea that they live in a higher dimensional plane where the rules are completely different. They're neither science fiction nor mythology; they're the New Gods and a little bit of both.

[Slaughter]

I think one of the things that make Superman cool is that you can probably put him in any situation and genre and you could work a story off him. Writters who say its hard to write Superman are quitters. Superman in the Far-West? There's a story there. Superman in magical wonderland? There's a story there. Superman amongst the New Gods? Classic "Superman in Supertown" situation. Superman in the far future? Yes, of course. Superman in post-apocalyptic Earth? Been done. Superman in a wacky sci-fi adventure? Course. Superman in a down-to-earth story? Yes. And it goes on and on and on...



Its a pity they never followed through that aborted mythological arc from the early 2000s, we had Cythonna show up, Supes (and Lois) be offered Godhood by a bunch of gods, and the Earth goddly pantheons really really REALLY hated when Supes talked about Rao and asked him never to speak his name to them (Scared?), etc. There was also Superman 666 and The Last Demon of Krypton (who was a lowly-demon who managed to escape from Krypton's version of hell by jumping and grasping Kal's rocket), etc.

A kryptonian mythologic arc could be fun - We got Rao, Cythonna, Vohc the Breaker, Flamebird and Nightwing, Last Demon of Krypton, etc. Since Supes is pretty sci-fi, I would like to see any appearance by the kryptonian pantheon be handled in a very New God-ish way.

[rightsuperhero]

Maybe they could re-introduce the kryptonian Flamebird as a variation of the Phoenix from Ancient Egyptian Mythology. The phoenix marked the beginning of time for the Ancient Egyptians. this aligns well with Superman since he is considered DC's first real Super-Hero in the new 52.

[rightsuperhero]

It would also be cool to see him in battle gear armor similar to the Egyptian Designs from the Stargate Atlantis TV Show.

[Jim Kelly]

Part of the problem with having supernatural forces that the hero knows to exist, beyond doubt, is that it changes the philosophy of the characters--or it should.

If Batman knows there's life after death, if Batman has met gods and angels and demons and vampires, if Batman has met the Spectre--then Batman should have a very different philosophy about the world in which he exists.

I use Batman as an example, because he ought to be the baseline for what is normal in the DCU--of course, the kinds of stories he's been involved in make him seem anything but normal, unfortunately--but this is my personal opinion about Batman.

That Batman even knows alien lifeforms exist or that this is generally known among the Earth popuation in the DCU should radically change their outlook and philosophy.

With Superman, it's one thing for him to have so much knowledge of time and space--although he should have a philosophy that accords with that knowledge--but for him to know for certain that "One short sleep past, we wake eternally/And death shall be no more; Death, thou shalt die" should change everything about how he conducts his life and how he handles the evil-doers in his midsts.

[DochaDocha]

I'd rather that Superman stories focused more on sci-fi stuff than fantasy (I know, I know, can of worms...), but I can't say I disliked seeing Samson and Atlas in All-Star.

My only request, then, would be that if they used mythological characters, try not to use the most commonly used ones.

[Jim Kelly]

I think it would help to distinguish Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman from each other if their knowledge was contained in this way. Batman is skeptical of everything and believes that there's a mundane explanation for everything--even his Black Casebook adventures may just be psychedelic experiences. Superman understands cosmic events in time and space, but is skeptical of anything supernatural. And Wonder Woman believes all things, having a much higher knowledge of the supernal.

To Superman, even when he meets Samson, Atlas and Hercules, he does not trust they are exactly what they say they are--and he looks for other explanations within his experience that would account for their presence.

[Ascended]

I could totally see Superman (and others) being skeptical of the supernatural as well. When you can do, see, and experience as much as Clark can, the line between mortal and divine must seem awfully blurry.

Take Apollo for example, as we've seen him in the 52; he's certainly powerful. He amped up Zod and Faora to Superman levels super-quick in the opening Superman/Wonder Woman arc. He turned three women into oracles who could foretell the future. He re-mapped an entire plane of existence with a thought once he had gained the Olympian throne. He's obviously crazy powerful, and Superman punched him in his face and hurt him. God? Isnt the definition of a god something that is absolutely beyond us? If Superman is just a mortal man, and he can get into a direct fist-fight with Apollo, one of the biggest gods in Greek myth, what worth is a god at all?

What about Myx? Myx is just (a self-confessed) being from a higher dimension, no more "divine" than you or I. Superman has also met New Gods and beings from higher realities and places where the laws of physics are completely different. And they're not "gods" either, just really powerful people.

From Clark's perspective, the only difference between a "god" and a Alpha/Omega level super-human might be that one of them has bought into his own hype.

Not that I think he'd ever tell Diana that....

[Kandor Rising]

I think that mythology could be a fertile ground, but not if you have to include too much continuity from another franchise- like Wonder Woman. Because then you have to give too much to them- and lose focus from Superman and his world. Which is the most important thing.

[mathew101281]

I disagree. Superman does not have a strong Rogues gallery and introducing some mythology from somewhere like Ancient Egyptians would be helpful in my opinion to create new stories. In today's preview of Supergirl she mentions the Kryptonian Sun-God Rao. In Ancient Egypt the very first God was named Ra. Why not just blend or make Rao into the Egyptian Sun-God Ra and have Superman and the rest of the Kryptonians be part Egyptians. This may seem like a radical idea but if you do an internet search you will see other inquiries about the similarities of ancient Egyptian Mythology and the Krypton language.

I would love to see a comic book adaption of the Egyptian Sun Scarab Attachment 14558 and the Egyptian Mythology of Ra-where it is said he created a daughter simply for the purpose of brutally killing his enemies.

As Ra grows older and weaker, humanity, too, turns against him. In an episode often called "The Destruction of Mankind", related in The Book of the Heavenly Cow, Ra discovers that humanity is plotting rebellion against him and sends his Eye to punish them. She slays many people, but Ra apparently decides that he does not want her to destroy all of humanity

What gives you the idea that superman has a weak rogues gallery?

[mathew101281]

I feel that there are characters better suited for mythology like Wonder Woman. I feel Superheroes are at there best when they know their genre. Green Lantern is superhero meets space opera, Wonder Woman is Superhero meets mythology, Batman is Superhero by way of the pulps etc. to me the superheroes that struggle the most are the ones that don't know what their cross genre is and are just general Superheroes.

[Stanlos]

I think the Fourth World has always had an uncomfortable position in the DCU, because it works according to a different set of rules. It doesn't easily fit either into the science fiction worlds of Superman and Green Lantern or in the mythical worlds of Wonder Woman and the Sandman.

I have to agree. I like the core characters and pretty much will read anything with them however I have echo Kelly's assertion that they do not easily fit into the various sub-realms of the DCU. Efforts to put them in have been awkward at best (Cosmic Odyssey, War of the Gods, Genesis, Countdown, Final Crisis). They are not quite Gods and they are not quite conventional aliens/cosmics/superheroes. They are their own thing somewhere in between but thus far get treated most as aliens with advanced tech.

[TeenWonder]

Well, seeing as Superman is all-rounder when it comes to superheroes, I can`t see why not as long as It doesn`t mess around with Wonder-Woman`s stories such as with greek god mythos which is sort of Wonder-Womans thing

Not to mention the fact is that Superman is sort of a mythological character himself now a days in a way, I mean the character is based on Moses and has many features that characters from mythology have such as Hercules, so why not put him up against and act with gods, considering his status as a character, but then again this could be just me, being a big fan of All-Star Superman and all.