What if the classic heroes did return with books after Convergence, do you trust today's writers.

[BohemiaDrinker]

What is "classic" to begin with around here? I ask because some people use it for characters or eras that were less popular or of a shorter duration than others not deemed as such.

I think it depends on the character.

"Classic Batgirl" might be Barbara Gordon, but OTOH, "classic Cassandra Cain" would be Cass as Batgirl.

Of course, this gets really complicated with characters like Dick Grayson or Steph Brown (whose heroic identities are pretty much meaningless by now) or with the Flash (since evryone who held the mantle but Bart could be referred to as "classic").

[Pharozonk]

Do we actually have numbers to back up how successful it really was back then? Not a trick question - I really have no idea what the sales were 20-something years ago in relation to the mean.

I've seen multiple accounts that sales on the series were good and fans loved it, but Carlin axed the series because he felt the current readers current relate to "older heroes".

[Lexrules]

What is "classic" to begin with around here? I ask because some people use it for characters or eras that were less popular or of a shorter duration than others not deemed as such.

Good Question as I use Classic a lot. I'm not sure it suites all the time. Classic to me is Silver / Bronze Age Superman , Bronze Age Batman (Addams), Golden Age JSA, Bronze Satellite Era JLA. I know classic is not the correct word to say here with these but for lose of a better word I often use classic.

[Lexrules]

I could never look down on Mike Carlin. The man is as passionate a Superman fan you will ever find and he was Editor to one of the best times story wise in Superman history and did an amazing job during that time.

[Pharozonk]

I could never look down on Mike Carlin. The man is as passionate a Superman fan you will ever find and he was Editor to one of the best times story wise in Superman history and did an amazing job during that time.

Surely you aren't including the Byrne Superman period in that "best time"?

[Lexrules]

Surely you aren't including the Byrne Superman period in that "best time"?

Starting with Exile, Eradication!, Krisis of the Krimson Kryptonite, Panic in the Sky, The Death and Return of Superman all the way up to The Fall of Metropolis was actually a very awesome run. Jurgens, Ordway, and Stern really kicked ass during that time period.

[WelcomeBackFrank]

Ha ha, Marvel isn't entirely editorially driven. . . sure. Because their entire universe isn't based on editorially-driven event after editorially-driven event and media tie-in mandates. Their writers are lucky to get an issue or two in to write the book their on before being forced to tie into something. Their writers are so irrelevant that they can be replaced in the midst of major events, like Fraction on Inhuman or Cornell on Death of Wolverine, neither of whom have any further work coming up with Marvel.

Yeah, I already mentioned Matt Fraction, are you finding it so difficult to provide examples that you have to use that one again. Matt Fraction was a unique example; he had been working happily at Marvel for years then left to go do creator owned work. He did come off of the Inhumans book because of creative differences ("It didn't make sense to continue working together on this book," the writer added. "I was not fired. I am not fired. I am still employed. We are all still friends. 'Inhuman' is a really big deal for all involved. You need to be moving as one.")
but was still working on Hawkeye. I notice he did not leave Marvel to go to DC anyway.

Is this the same Paul Cornell who vocally left DC because of editorial interference (not some media bias as you seem to be weirdly and quite bizarrely putting it down to) because he was forced into a Doomsday event that he wanted nothing to do with and that destroyed his promising run on Action comics. He is on record as saying his run was as he intended it to be and says he was happy with his 25 issue project. Doesn't sound like there is an awful lot of unrest going on there either.

Marvel's plans for the universe, their events and the characters are made collaboratively at their creator retreats. This is why their events work in a far more seamless manner, check out Al Ewing's Mighty Avengers for how well they have worked any tie-ins.

Dan Slott's Amazing Spider-Man is a prime example of a massively creative book, driven by it's writer and filled with years of crazy & imaginative concepts. DC have nothing close to the this. The only guy who has been able to produce long runs at DC is Geoff Johns and I'm grateful for those because at least we had a Green Lantern book that had something approaching a level of consistency.

I'm a DC fan, it was DC I grew up reading and still who I look to each month in the solicits in the hope that they can get their act together. This is not a Marvel V DC thing for me, I'm using Marvel as an example being the other big mainstream publisher who unfortunately have their house in a far better order than the mess DC has been in since about 6 months into the New 52 where they blew it.

There's a long list of creators who have left in bad circumstances and you will not be hard pushed to find examples of those and comments from the creators themselves.

DC set a very hard precedent for themselves and I hope the rumours are true that they are about to loosen up their creative control in a bid to win back some talent, because it's going to get to the point where no-one worth their salt is going to want to work for them.

[WelcomeBackFrank]

double post

[WelcomeBackFrank]

Keep telling yourself that, sweetheart.

This is coming from the guy who blames media bias for the reason stories come out about DC and not Marvel.

If you can't come up with a counter argument, you should maybe take the blinkers off for 2 minutes and see how ridiculous you sound in your uber defence of a publisher who are quite clearly rubbing creators up the wrong way.

Do you think you will see the likes of Hickman, Aaron or even Remender coming to work at DC anytime soon?

Charles Soule was the best thing to happen at DC for a long time and now he's going to be the next guy steering Marvel's ship.

Not until they change either the editorial approach, or better yet the people in charge will we see a period of creativity and promising writers wanting to work at DC.

[Lexrules]

This is coming from the guy who blames media bias for the reason stories come out about DC and not Marvel.

If you can't come up with a counter argument, you should maybe take the blinkers off for 2 minutes and see how ridiculous you sound in your uber defence of a publisher who are quite clearly rubbing creators up the wrong way.

Do you think you will see the likes of Hickman, Aaron or even Remender coming to work at DC anytime soon?

Charles Soule was the best thing to happen at DC for a long time and now he's going to be the next guy steering Marvel's ship.

Not until they change either the editorial approach, or better yet the people in charge will we see a period of creativity and promising writers wanting to work at DC.

I could see someone being put on the infamous Ignore list of DJI.

BTW, Welcome to the board my friend.

[CoffeeCup]

I tried to stay out of this, I really did, but its clear people on here have no idea how business works.

Do you think for a second DC wouldn't go back to "classic" version of the characters if they thought it would sale better? Truth of the matter is that most average comic readers prefer the newer version of the characters.

Funny thing is, in 20 years when DC reboots again, everyone on the CBR forums at that time will complain about the NEW NEW 52 and how DC needs to go back to the classic (New 52) characters, because it will be the characters they grew up with and know? Its just a cycle that will continue over and over again. People complained about the rebooted Crisis characters and now they are the "Classic" characters.

I'll never understand why people take Batman and Superman not wearing tights so seriously.

[Lexrules]

I tried to stay out of this, I really did, but its clear people on here have no idea how business works.

Do you think for a second DC wouldn't go back to "classic" version of the characters if they thought it would sale better? Truth of the matter is that most average comic readers prefer the newer version of the characters.

Funny thing is, in 20 years when DC reboots again, everyone on the CBR forums at that time will complain about the NEW NEW 52 and how DC needs to go back to the classic (New 52) characters, because it will be the characters they grew up with and know? Its just a cycle that will continue over and over again. People complained about the rebooted Crisis characters and now they are the "Classic" characters.

I'll never understand why people take Batman and Superman not wearing tights so seriously.

Every generation has their classic take. You're right that in 20 years the fans today will take up the call we older fans now are when their classic heroes also get replaced. its a vicious never ending cycle.

I get upset with the Classic Superman suit being replaced because it was always there with every generations and never really needed to be changed because Superman is the blueprint for every other Superhero that followed including Batman. I also feel that if any character deserves to stay the way he was it's Superman.

[The Darknight Detective]

I've seen multiple accounts that sales on the series were good and fans loved it, but Carlin axed the series because he felt the current readers current relate to "older heroes".

That's what I have been hearing for years myself, but I haven't actually seen the numbers in relation to the average title of that time. For decades, I have also been hearing that Batman was about to be axed before the "New Look" of 1964 based on sales, despite the actual sales figures not really being bad at all. IOW, I'm from Missouri when it comes to anecdotal evidence.

[CoffeeCup]

Every generation has their classic take. You're right that in 20 years the fans today will take up the call we older fans now are when their classic heroes also get replaced. its a vicious never ending cycle.

I get upset with the Classic Superman suit being replaced because it was always there with every generations and never really needed to be changed because Superman is the blueprint for every other Superhero that followed including Batman. I also feel that if any character deserves to stay the way he was it's Superman.

Yea, I just don't get that arguement. If you really like superman wouldn't you want him to change with the times to remain relevant? A guy wearing underwear isn't relevant this day and age. But to give you hope, everything old eventually comes back in style. I'm sure in 10 years, I'll be typing, he should have on trunks because it is "cool" with todays crowd.

I guess I'm different from most here in that I typically always look at things with the mindset of whats best for business, even if its not my business. Sometimes it takes the fun out of it but its a good business mindset. You're never going to please everyone. I'd actually probably drop 90% of the books I read if they reverted back to classic characters. Times move on, things change.

[Lexrules]

Yea, I just don't get that arguement. If you really like superman wouldn't you want him to change with the times to remain relevant? A guy wearing underwear isn't relevant this day and age. But to give you hope, everything old eventually comes back in style. I'm sure in 10 years, I'll be typing, he should have on trunks because it is "cool" with todays crowd.

I guess I'm different from most here in that I typically always look at things with the mindset of whats best for business, even if its not my business. Sometimes it takes the fun out of it but its a good business mindset. You're never going to please everyone. I'd actually probably drop 90% of the books I read if they reverted back to classic characters. Times move on, things change.

Change with the world around him sure but change his look to match the world around him no because he is a fictional character that lives in a fictional world. What works in that fictional world in 1938 also works in the fictional world of 2014. Only those readers who have a problem understanding that not everything needs to be sleek or updated have problems with the suite. Up to very recent years those who didn't like it where often ignored and we were better for it. Imagination is meant to silly and unrealistic.