Rumbler's League Fall 2014 - Week 6 - Charlotte DeBel vs Cthulhu of R'lyeh

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

I think that in terms of Skill/Ability Emma still has the Edge on Rachel in TP combat, but Rachel with the Phoenix Echo boost has more Raw power. But I think a TP duel would be had as both peoole are in Telepathic combat and being close to Rachel to attack isnt neccesary, so Sheildbreaker doesnt have anything to block(especially if they fight on the Astral Plane) as they dont have to be close to attack each other(Cross Continent and World Spanning telepathy for example).

Though I believe Zatannas moves are just as important than the Emma/Rachel duel as the way it looks her moves can take out everyone but Rachel fairly quickly and then its Rachel ad her defenses against a whole team of people. Though if Black Bolt can get a sound off, or Bubbles get into close range of her opponents then it would help ease the burden on Rachel.

If Black Bolt gets Magically controlled into yelling at Rachel, everything but her is dead.

4/15

[Dalak]

Could you provide some feats for the Masakados? Things it's actually done and reflected as opposed to just the game mechanics.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Could you provide some feats for the Masakados? Things it's actually done and reflected as opposed to just the game mechanics.

Can't find much in the way of standard mob fights, but here's a few Boss Fights who sadly don't engage in much physical combat but rely on spells dealing elemental/almighty damage.

- Baal Avatar, Baal Avatar fight w/Masakados Equipped
- Lucifer, Lucifer Fight w/Masakados
- Kagutsuchi, Kagatsuchi fight w/Masakados

There's probably more, but I will definitely have to do some digging on the "YouTubes"

But it should be noted, the user of the Maskados voids (when he gets hit with an attack and it says "VOID" in funny letters) all kinds of attacks that involve;

Fire damage
Ice damage
Electric damage
Force damage
Physical damage
Death
Ailments
Magic damage

But only reflects:

Fire damage
Ice damage
Electric damage
Force damage (wind, blast literal translation of the kanji is something like "shock" or "impact", so Black Bolt's voice ...)
Physical damage

So when the guy is being damaged, it's because he's being hit by Almighty effects. What actually constitutes Almighty is up for debate, however, I suppose.

I'm sure Duskman can correct/confirm points that I've hit or missed, and otherwise explain it better than I can attempt to, however.

5/15

[Duskman]

Cthu's pretty much got the description right. Not sure what else I can provide here that hasn't already been said. Almighty attacks are the purview of a few bosses, the Megido spell line, and one or two of the DF's techniques. They'll punch through any of the special defenses, much like the Pierce skill, assuming they hit, with only two bosses having any resistance to it (Lucifer and Noah).

On the defensive front, here's a fight without Masakados or any voiding power: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtehEyoXMI4 (go to 6:50 in the vid). Notice how the DF is getting knocked back/staggered when he gets hit. With the voiding powers of certain Magatama, he'll just stand there, unbudging, as seen in the above vids. I suppose you can just interpret that how you will.

I'm not super certain that the Masakados would totally nullify Black Bolts voice, only because I don't know what you'd rank his voice as. If it is literally just a powerful sonic shockwave, than I think the Magatama could tank it.

However, especially these days, Black Bolt's got some kind of cosmic energy aspect to his power, doesn't he? Voice carried, sure, but it can damage cosmic characters, can't it? I think there was some story where he damaged a Watcher or one of those cosmic entities with it, even though a sonic scream wouldn't have hurt them. But that might have been a What If...?, so don't quote me on that. If there is some kind of cosmic energy to it, it would probably qualify as Almighty.

[big_adventure]

Eh, all (well, most) of Black Bolt's powers are "electron manipulation" - which, given his stupid assortment of powers, sounds an awful lot like Magneto's "BECAUSE MAGNETS." I mean, the guy has shown transmutation, self-amping to fight-me-some-Gladiator levels, flying casually from the Moon to Earth, impressive super strength, solid durability, energy bolts. Basically, he's got the ability to do a ton of crazy stuff, but, thanks to what is effectively a birth defect, his powers are also linked to his voice. This means that if he speaks (gurgles, moans, laughs, screams, sings, whispers, whatever) there is a MASSIVE shot of his power that releases explosively. It's not really sound - it works beautifully in a vacuum - though sometimes it's oddly portrayed as sound for plot-based purposes. I mean, when the Inhumans annihilated the rest of the Skrulls, overran the Kree and participated in War of Kings, the Inhuman (and later, Kree) forces were using "sonic weapons" that were all powered for the duration of the war by BB speaking once (on panel) into a big Maximus/Karnak machine. But even those weapons worked just fine thanks in space, so...

EDIT: Oh, to add one small point, BB's regular (no specially harnassed or whatever) voice attack is definitely "physical" damage. It's basically a concussion blast that can KO a class 100 with a whisper and do substantially more belting out his favorite Lady Gaga tunes.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

I'm not super certain that the Masakados would totally nullify Black Bolts voice, only because I don't know what you'd rank his voice as. If it is literally just a powerful sonic shockwave, than I think the Magatama could tank it.

However, especially these days, Black Bolt's got some kind of cosmic energy aspect to his power, doesn't he? Voice carried, sure, but it can damage cosmic characters, can't it? I think there was some story where he damaged a Watcher or one of those cosmic entities with it, even though a sonic scream wouldn't have hurt them. But that might have been a What If...?, so don't quote me on that. If there is some kind of cosmic energy to it, it would probably qualify as Almighty.

That's more to do with the strength of the scream. Which is up there. For example, at full bore, it's largely responsible for opening a massive rift in space- The Fault. Hell, even a Skrull operation with a fraction of the ability pretty much jacked the Hulk up with a whisper.

But the power itself is based on his electron manipulation or some such, which is governed by his mental control. So I don't know if Zatanna attempting to puppet the guy would yield the results she's after, since, in every instance that's mattered, people attempting to use his abilities for their own ends have needed him to speak of his own accord.

Well what would be considered Almighty outside of the game? Beyond the obvious Godly stuff like Thor's Godblast n'such. Since Cosmic energies are mentioned in the item's profile, it seems to matter.

Seems like really powerful magic/divine/godly/cosmic shenanigans would work. For instance Preacher's Guns, or a specifically potent magical attack.

Piercing was brought up as stuff like Haki and other durability-bypassing effects, and I'd expect the 'Cut Anything' swords out there from various places would count. Curiously enough, Karate Kid's inertron/force field breaking, kryptonian harming attacks weren't counted though so there's probably an issue with various ki-strikes.

The Sword that can "cut through anything", still needs to pierce the skin. Which is the problem it seems, since the piercing means that it has to be an attack that specifically ignores physical damage or any of the above listed powers that the Masakados is immune/reflects, to target her/the DF's insides. Magic could do it I suppose (normally), or say an attack that could specifically target a person's insides, or summat. But pressure points/Ki couldn't, since they requires physical contact before the discharge. Which ... would literally blow the effect back at them.

E: Oh, would that wind/whatever cover TK and pure force effects like those from D&D where they effect Ghosts/Intangibles?

I'd say it could stop TK, since it's mental force applied to a target to cause physical effects. TP might be debatable as well if it's considered to be a "status ailment".

6/15

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Look at that, a blood blitz ...

OT 2/5

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Eh, all (well, most) of Black Bolt's powers are "electron manipulation" - which, given his stupid assortment of powers, sounds an awful lot like Magneto's "BECAUSE MAGNETS." I mean, the guy has shown transmutation, self-amping to fight-me-some-Gladiator levels, flying casually from the Moon to Earth, impressive super strength, solid durability, energy bolts. Basically, he's got the ability to do a ton of crazy stuff, but, thanks to what is effectively a birth defect, his powers are also linked to his voice. This means that if he speaks (gurgles, moans, laughs, screams, sings, whispers, whatever) there is a MASSIVE shot of his power that releases explosively. It's not really sound - it works beautifully in a vacuum - though sometimes it's oddly portrayed as sound for plot-based purposes. I mean, when the Inhumans annihilated the rest of the Skrulls, overran the Kree and participated in War of Kings, the Inhuman (and later, Kree) forces were using "sonic weapons" that were all powered for the duration of the war by BB speaking once (on panel) into a big Maximus/Karnak machine. But even those weapons worked just fine thanks in space, so...

EDIT: Oh, to add one small point, BB's regular (no specially harnessed or whatever) voice attack is definitely "physical" damage. It's basically a concussion blast that can KO a class 100 with a whisper and do substantially more belting out his favorite Lady Gaga tunes.

Which is why his willpower is ridiculous. Guy doesn't talk unless he feels he needs to. Or, in the instance that he's in that Pocket Dimension his crazy brother made for him where there's no worry of him blowing stuff up when he opens his mouth to say "sup dudes".

7/15

[Duskman]

But the power itself is based on his electron manipulation or some such, which is governed by his mental control. So I don't know if Zatanna attempting to puppet the guy would yield the results she's after, since, in every instance that's mattered, people attempting to use his abilities for their own ends have needed him to speak of his own accord.

Rmph. That's... tricky to say.


I guess I'm not being of much help here, but quoting myself from the discussion thread:

Well, we're getting into speculative territory, aren't we? But I would consider "cosmic energy" like what the Surfer and other such characters have as Almighty. Things like Holy and Infernal energies would probably be covered under Expel/Death skills, which Masakados also voids.

Higher-level Transmutation abilities I would think would probably get past Magatama's defenses as well. While it can no-sell Stone/Petrify spells (thanks to Ailment Void), there's no real feats for resisting someone like Element Lad or Firestorm from ripping them apart on a molecular level.

Chi... I dunno. Chi's that nebulous sort of thing where it's physical force like telekinesis, but has some vague "spiritual property." I think Masakados could tank that, though, since that would fall under Techniques (HP-cost skills), and if I recall, that counts for Physical, and there are enemies which no-sell those thanks to Phys Void. On the other hand, if you're talking chi techniques that are specifically designed to bypass special defenses (again, referencing Haki techniques), then the argument could be made there.

I would think Telekinesis, being pure force, would definitely be covered by either Force or Physical Void. You fight spectral entities in the game as is, and you can no sell their attacks as well as anything else.

Now, direct psychic attack, that's a little fuzzy. Thanks to Ailment Void, there's several mind addling effects that can be no-sold, such as Charm and Confuse (which can be inflicted with mental attacks), but there's no feats for someone with complex psychic powers (such as the X-Men psychics), from doing more complicated stuff.

"Cut anything swords"... I think it would depend on what let's it cut stuff. There would have to be some kind of mystical element to it, at least. I don't think an adamantium sword or monomolecular wire or a lightsaber are going to do anything, no matter how sharp, because again, there's more to Phys Void than mere durabilty.

Feel free to ignore.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Rmph. That's... tricky to say.

Tricky yes, completely impossible to believe? .. not entirely. It'd just be a matter of Zatanna's best "I can break your will with Magic" feats. At which point it becomes, with BB's will now compromised (if that's a thing), will his powers work the way Zatanna needs them to.

I guess I'm not being of much help here, but quoting myself from the discussion thread:

-snip-

Feel free to ignore.

Nah, some good points there.

I agree with Cosmic Forces being Almighty, they're well beyond the scope of most things.

But I feel transmutation is pretty tricky, especially against Rachelsakados who's capable of doing similar stuff with her own TK. With Chi ... I said much the same in the other thread, but it'd need to be something that specifically targets the insides without doing anything that requires getting physical to get there. I agree that psychic assault may have an in normally, but with Amped Rachelsakados™ it's not a wise idea.

But with mono-molecular edges I'd say you're getting into transmutation, something that physically affects the molecules of the target ... not a good idea. But mystical swords, or swords in general are a bad idea with Shieldbreaker.

8/15

[Charlotte DeBel]

Eh, all (well, most) of Black Bolt's powers are "electron manipulation" - which, given his stupid assortment of powers, sounds an awful lot like Magneto's "BECAUSE MAGNETS." I mean, the guy has shown transmutation, self-amping to fight-me-some-Gladiator levels, flying casually from the Moon to Earth, impressive super strength, solid durability, energy bolts. Basically, he's got the ability to do a ton of crazy stuff, but, thanks to what is effectively a birth defect, his powers are also linked to his voice. This means that if he speaks (gurgles, moans, laughs, screams, sings, whispers, whatever) there is a MASSIVE shot of his power that releases explosively. It's not really sound - it works beautifully in a vacuum - though sometimes it's oddly portrayed as sound for plot-based purposes. I mean, when the Inhumans annihilated the rest of the Skrulls, overran the Kree and participated in War of Kings, the Inhuman (and later, Kree) forces were using "sonic weapons" that were all powered for the duration of the war by BB speaking once (on panel) into a big Maximus/Karnak machine. But even those weapons worked just fine thanks in space, so...

EDIT: Oh, to add one small point, BB's regular (no specially harnassed or whatever) voice attack is definitely "physical" damage. It's basically a concussion blast that can KO a class 100 with a whisper and do substantially more belting out his favorite Lady Gaga tunes.

Thus it gets reflected by "reflect damage" spell just fine - it was designed to tank a PHYSICAL damage enough to pulverize a guy capable of tanking hits from planet busters (since Zee wanted Lobo (who just killed her father) to die in the most painful way possible).
As for Almighty, as I've said I based it on this
While the feats per se are non-canon, the stats given are the one for DMC2 version (there was a legal agreement "you guest star DMC2 Dante, and we allow you to do DMC3 design") and thus can be considered canon. A sword and a gun attack that count as Almighty. An idea of phase sword Stinger was tantalizing to me if not for Shieldbreaker, but that's freakin' offtopic. And I don't believe that "take the sword away from you with a body part without extra armaments while you are unable to react on physical plane" counts as "armed attack" so if "drag Rachel on astral plane and steal Shieldbreaker" stuff works, there's a possible attack route if we're debating SMT mechanics.

[Charlotte DeBel]

Oh, and the funny part? The arc where Emma schooled Rachel on astral plane was written by Claremont and in this arc Rachel was specifically stated to have "infinite raw power" (I'll find scans when I get home - bringing external HD with comics is kinda not allowed where I work). I don't know how one amps past infinite. Though since this duel Rachel has received some training from Xavier in "stranded in space" arc - but she was not put against anybody of top psychics Emma hasn't owned in her own right to determine whether it's enough to determine the 1 to 7 duel outcome (with possible neural system stimulant injection on our side for more boost).
Also, I don't know. If a whisper from Black Bolt bounces off your swords and my "reflection field" frequently enough the results may be... interesting if anything gets in between. But there's no chance - it's either Black Bolt yells at Rachel and our field bounces off collateral damage or...nothing happens and we're back to "try to engage Rachel on astral plane while stealing Shieldbreaker, then the Almighty phase sword attack to the head" plan.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

What Planet Busters are Lobo capable of trading with, exactly? And don't say Superman, because he's not.

9/15

[Charlotte DeBel]

What Planet Busters are Lobo capable of trading with, exactly? And don't say Superman, because he's not.

9/15

Darkseid is enough for you, I think? Lobo tangoed with him a bit, got BFR'd but nevertheless... there's it. He never tanked an Omega Beam, but we're not talking about Omega Beams. Besides, if there's TOO MUCH collateral damage, the excess energy can be D-dumped by Star Brand somewhere (energy dimensional transfer is in scans in the strat - this is covered in case Lobo-proof attack reflectors are not enough).

[Charlotte DeBel]

However, the thing about Lobo is that he can TAKE insane amount of punishment, and his regenerative capabilities are pretty common knowledge among DC Capes. Regen-wise he's a love-child of Wolverine&Hulk plus-minus a bit. So I don't think I'll need to dump too much excess energy. The idea was to "hurt Lobo enough even his healing factor won't help" and that means reflecting a CRAPTON of punishment. Hurting a brick with insane regen with his own attacks is kinda more difficult than hurting "just" a brick.
And seeing how Lobo took a third option, opting for PSYCHOLOGICAL attack on Zee, the reflector kinda worked since he avoided engaging her directly.