Wonder Woman #37 SPOILERS

[Agent Z]

Sure. So? It's clear that these are all reasons why the crone despises Diana. It's not clear that they are the reasons the council went along with her. They may just have been persuaded that they need their queen on the isalnd.



I believe we've only seen two Amazons (in the Finches' run) express displeasure about having the men on the island. That it would make it two (including Diana) "for" having the men there and two "against." Still, I would guess a majority is probably against; change is hard, and Dessa does say "they're not happy," or words to that effect. But a "majority" is not necessarily close to "all," and if there is any substantial division of opinion, then the situation may not be so simple.

Then why not SHOW it as an actual divide? Again we've had only two Amazons who want change vs a huge majority that want things to stay the same (and I don't feel the majority should be discounted just because they don't mean 'all'). For all this talk about how the New 52 Amazons are rarely of one mind, there is very little evidence to support this claim. Diana and Dessa seem more like aberrations rather than proof of a divided society.

[Silvanus]

Then why not SHOW it as an actual divide?

Well, they have, haven't they? Diana and Dessa feel one way, and the crone and her confederate in issue 36 feel another. That, in itself, is a divide.

There could be others who agree with Diana and Dressa, but it's probably more dramatic not to focus on that possibility for now. Being [even seemingly] outnumbered is dramatic, but when Diana prevails, we may find that there were a lot of Amazons eager to follow her lead.

Again we've had only two Amazons who want change vs a huge majority that want things to stay the same (and I don't feel the majority should be discounted just because they don't mean 'all').

You say a "huge majority"; but how many is that, exactly? I only remember seeing two Amazons actually say that they are against having the men on the island. There are others hanging around who arguably look like they're in agreement, but I don't see much evidence of any "huge majority" on this issue.

The council does seem undivided, as far as we know, on the idea that Diana should decide between being a queen and keep up her commitments beyond the island--but, regardless of the crone's motivations, we have no way of knowing that the other members of the council reached this decision because of how they feel about men.

[Agent Z]

Well, they have, haven't they? Diana and Dessa feel one way, and the crone and her confederate in issue 36 feel another. That, in itself, is a divide.

There could be others who agree with Diana and Dressa, but it's probably more dramatic not to focus on that possibility for now. Being [even seemingly] outnumbered is dramatic, but when Diana prevails, we may find that there were a lot of Amazons eager to follow her lead.



You say a "huge majority"; but how many is that, exactly? I only remember seeing two Amazons actually say that they are against having the men on the island. There are others hanging around who arguably look like they're in agreement, but I don't see much evidence of any "huge majority" on this issue.

The council does seem undivided, as far as we know, on the idea that Diana should decide between being a queen and keep up her commitments beyond the island--but, regardless of the crone's motivations, we have no way of knowing that the other members of the council reached this decision because of how they feel about men.

I'm not sure if just showing two people out of dozens is necessarily more dramatic, but I guess that's just how I feel.

The thing is we know that Dessa and Diana don't hate men because we have seen them express these opinions. Sure this doesn't mean the other Amazons do hate men but it's not hard to reach that conclusion when they don't utter a word of protest or argument whenever someone expresses a misandrist opinion. I feel like I'm reading about a savage, organic version of the Borg from Star Trek: TNG not supposedly divided Amazons.

[Darius]

It doesn't matter. My original comment had nothing to do with whether she is a villain or not - its about how she is introduced as a character.

yes, it's dark, but that has no bearing on the potential of the character ... I'll be sad if they decide that Donna Troy will be the main WW villain for all eternity, but I sense that the purpose of giving her this origin is to eventually have her overcome her shadowy "birth" as a triumph of a bright soul over an evil beginning (ala Paula Von Gunther).

[brettc1]

yes, it's dark, but that has no bearing on the potential of the character ... I'll be sad if they decide that Donna Troy will be the main WW villain for all eternity, but I sense that the purpose of giving her this origin is to eventually have her overcome her shadowy "birth" as a triumph of a bright soul over an evil beginning (ala Paula Von Gunther).

Exactly. Everything has to be dark and edgy. Everyone has to be loaded up with a metric ton of angst to overcome and more baggage than luggage compartment of a Boeing passenger jet on Christmas eve.

[Darius]

Exactly. Everything has to be dark and edgy. Everyone has to be loaded up with a metric ton of angst to overcome and more baggage than luggage compartment of a Boeing passenger jet on Christmas eve.

The Silver Age called, they want their cheese back

Dark is not exactly new ... Comics have been doing that for decades.

[Dr. Poison]

The Silver Age called, they want their cheese back

Dark is not exactly new ... Comics have been doing that for decades.

Just because a comic or character isn't dark doesn't make it cheesy. Not every comic/character needs to be dirtied up with a layer of filth that only a diamond can cut through.

[Darius]

Just because a comic or character isn't dark doesn't make it cheesy. Not every comic/character needs to be dirtied up with a layer of filth that only a diamond can cut through.

I didn't say it was necessary, just that it's nothing new. As for cheesy ... I agree, I quiet enjoy stuff DCAU stuff like Batman Brave and the Bold and Teen Titans Go!. But WW has lived in a dark world for a long time, Dark had been pretty consistent since at least Perez and before that it wasn't unheard of either. Denny O'Neil's depowered WW was extremely dark for its time and her origins are rooted in one of the darkest times in history. Thematically I see no problem with an origin such as this for Donna, who never had some light and fun origin. In fact it's the rare superhero who doesn't have some darkness to their origin, most of them have a tragic origin that drives their heroics.

[Silvanus]

Sure this doesn't mean the other Amazons do hate men but it's not hard to reach that conclusion when they don't utter a word of protest or argument whenever someone expresses a misandrist opinion.

clyemene.jpg

The Amazons in the background in this panel from 36 don't protest or argue when Dessa speaks any more than they do when Clyemene speaks. And it's a pretty tradition-based society, so even just remaining silent rather than protesting when someone supports changing a tradition could be a bold statement in itself. So why would you assume that they agree with Clyemene? They're silent because they're "spear bearers," or extras; their role is just to stand there quietly.

[Darth Kal-el]

I am loving the book. Donna will probably start off as an antagonist and end up as a sister. Fans just have to wait. As for her match against Superman she was letting off steam and he was letting her. Their comic has stated over and over she is a better warrior and fighter because Clark is not one. Plus they are in a loving relationship. It's not about scoring points,it's about being there for each other.
Finally I see no problem with her stressed. She is being pushed to her limits and pulled in all directions. Everyone has a breaking point. Everything she recently went through under Azzarello and then thinking her love died and then her mother did,anyone would be on edge

[Sacred Knight]

I didn't say it was necessary, just that it's nothing new.

Agreed. Things are no more dark and dreary than they've been for at least 20 years. Probably closer to 30. Its amazing to me that over three years later this "the New 52 is dark on an unimaginable scale" fallacy continues to be perpetuated by some. That's an awful long time to peddle a falsehood.

[brettc1]

clyemene.jpg

The Amazons in the background in this panel from 36 don't protest or argue when Dessa speaks any more than they do when Clyemene speaks. And it's a pretty tradition-based society, so even just remaining silent rather than protesting when someone supports changing a tradition could be a bold statement in itself. So why would you assume that they agree with Clyemene? They're silent because they're "spear bearers," or extras; their role is just to stand there quietly.

One also has to look at the visuals - Dessa is in the middle of the room with the other Amazons surrounding her.

Subliminally the message is that she is defending her position from the others, like a person on trial.

[Darius]

Agreed. Things are no more dark and dreary than they've been for at least 20 years. Probably closer to 30. Its amazing to me that over three years later this "the New 52 is dark on an unimaginable scale" fallacy continues to be perpetuated by some. That's an awful long time to peddle a falsehood.

I think this comics at least in part due to the Marvel/DC rivalry ... Back at the end of the Silver Age DC was fairly disconnected and deep in the CCA mentality and Marvel started producing more "real" stories such as Spider-Man losing Uncle Ben and the family dynamic of the FF and the obvious social commentary of the Xmen ... First steps toward "dark" happened in the mid-1960's

[Mel Dyer]

Wild adventures to strange worlds...Hell, Supertown, Olympus...with Zola, Hermes and Zeke replaced by Wonder Woman whining like a baby and crying in her ice cream. We've traded in a hearty 'Great Hera' for a grating 'boo hoo'.

We'll see.

[SonOfBaldwin]

This issue wasn't as horrible as I had heard, but it utterly confused me.

I couldn't tell what order the sequence of events were happening in. (Was it before, after, or during, or all of the above that the spell to create Donna Troy was happening?)

I couldn't tell which characters were which. (The sorceress with the tail looked similar to the female creature at the end.)

I couldn't tell whom was talking to whom. (Was the sacrificed Amazon the daughter of the sorceress or the crone?)

Amazons generally have only a first name. Why does Donna have a last name?