Johns' Shazam vs. Morrison"s Captain Marvel

[matthew]

I actually pretty much agree. I'm not sure realism is the right word but it is the word being thrown around a lot to explain why the "old ways don't work". The added "realism" or maturity make the stories feel more real and the characters more relateable. Something I'm not sure I agree with. Or at the very least something I don't think is actually "needed". Sure in order to tell some stories it is, but I'm not sure I need the characters to have a lot of flaws to be relateable or to enjoy their stories. I like to have superheroes that are better than me. More heroic, more idealistic and more super than me. Characters that embody something we'd like to strive towards but know we'd never be able to accomplish. A dream of something better.

To have Billy Batson be an upbeat kid with a strong sense of justice and optimism, maybe even naivity in his belief in the good of this world despite being brought up in an orphanage or on the street might not be all that realistic but I like him because of these qualities.

I wouldn't use the word maturity either, I don't think it's accurate. I would use the word cynical. Which sometimes is confused for maturity, but is not.

[thetrellan]

I actually pretty much agree. I'm not sure realism is the right word but it is the word being thrown around a lot to explain why the "old ways don't work". The added "realism" or maturity make the stories feel more real and the characters more relateable. Something I'm not sure I agree with. Or at the very least something I don't think is actually "needed". Sure in order to tell some stories it is, but I'm not sure I need the characters to have a lot of flaws to be relateable or to enjoy their stories. I like to have superheroes that are better than me. More heroic, more idealistic and more super than me. Characters that embody something we'd like to strive towards but know we'd never be able to accomplish. A dream of something better.

To have Billy Batson be an upbeat kid with a strong sense of justice and optimism, maybe even naivity in his belief in the good of this world despite being brought up in an orphanage or on the street might not be all that realistic but I like him because of these qualities.

I'm not really a fan of silver age Superman-type storytelling, which is how I perceive Captain Marvel to be. But I think on some level superheroes should remain role models.

Mr. Fantastic, for instance, today is too socially inept for me. Intelligence should not equate to "graceless social error", if you ask me. That's not realism, it's an episode of Bones.

Reed was the guy who always knew what to do, who grabbed Johnny by the collar and made him follow orders when the kid would have otherwise gone off half-cocked. Sure the guy had a bad habit of locking himself in his lab, but not in order to hide from the world but to save it. Someone that introverted would never end up with Susan Storm, and his interactions with Namor, as jealousy-charged as they were, showed him to be a socially astute man possessed of great restraint. Richards was always meant to play the role model, and being a father should have made him more so, not less.

Of course lack of that restraint may have been one reason Susan went to Namor when her relationship got too rocky. Change of pace, and all that.

But more than that, something is just wrong in comic book paradise. I don't know, maybe the illusion of change just stopped being enough. With all this emphasis on realism, characters running around with 20 years minimum of experience still being essentially the same as they've always been and no wiser seems somehow off.

[dswynne]

I'm not really a fan of silver age Superman-type storytelling, which is how I perceive Captain Marvel to be. But I think on some level superheroes should remain role models.

Mr. Fantastic, for instance, today is too socially inept for me. Intelligence should not equate to "graceless social error", if you ask me. That's not realism, it's an episode of Bones.

Reed was the guy who always knew what to do, who grabbed Johnny by the collar and made him follow orders when the kid would have otherwise gone off half-cocked. Sure the guy had a bad habit of locking himself in his lab, but not in order to hide from the world but to save it. Someone that introverted would never end up with Susan Storm, and his interactions with Namor, as jealousy-charged as they were, showed him to be a socially astute man possessed of great restraint. Richards was always meant to play the role model, and being a father should have made him more so, not less.

Of course lack of that restraint may have been one reason Susan went to Namor when her relationship got too rocky. Change of pace, and all that.

But more than that, something is just wrong in comic book paradise. I don't know, maybe the illusion of change just stopped being enough. With all this emphasis on realism, characters running around with 20 years minimum of experience still being essentially the same as they've always been and no wiser seems somehow off.

You look at how Reed was introduced, he could be a bit of a "a-hole" by today's standards, and he definitely had no problems pushing the boundaries of morality where his research and development was concerned.

[thetrellan]

You look at how Reed was introduced, he could be a bit of a "a-hole" by today's standards, and he definitely had no problems pushing the boundaries of morality where his research and development was concerned.

21st century Reed Richards counterparts tend to be evil, while What If Reeds from the bronze age good. The difference seems to be whether or not he paired up with Sue. As if she were his moral compass or something. But that doesn't explain Zombie Reed, who was good until confronted with the living dead. Infected the FF deliberately. What a richards.

[andersonh1]

The older I get, the less I care about "realism" in comics. I just want to see noble, heroic characters having adventures and acting like decent people. There's nothing wrong with portraying a character who is simply doing good because it's the right thing to do.

I wouldn't use the word maturity either, I don't think it's accurate. I would use the word cynical. Which sometimes is confused for maturity, but is not.

I agree. Comics are so cynical today.

21st century Reed Richards counterparts tend to be evil,

How many evil Superman counterparts do we have these days as well? I'm not sure where the need to present corrupted versions of these characters comes from, other than yet more cynicism.

[dswynne]

What I like about the America's Best Comics is that the world set in that line was not opposed to taking advantage of the technological development as a result of the superhero genre. In my mind, both DC and Marvel should already be more advanced than the real world, especially with the likes of Reed Richards, Tony Stark, Ray Palmer, Ivo and others, good or bad, being around. Heck, when John Bryne wrote/drew NAMOR, I like the idea that the corporations were a lot more powerful, using both mundane and otherwise as fronts in the battles between the superheroes and the super villains (like what Roxxon had been doing in THOR recently). In fact, I wonder why, let's say, Dr. Doom isn't using a corporate structure as a means of taking over the world. Then again, chewing scenery in a boardroom setting isn't exactly classic Doom...

[Dataweaver]

It wasn’t classic Luthor, either; not until John Byrne reimagined him as a corporate tycoon rather than a technological genius. And then Mark Waid reimagined him as both.

[Dataweaver]

The older I get, the less I care about "realism" in comics. I just want to see noble, heroic characters having adventures and acting like decent people. There's nothing wrong with portraying a character who is simply doing good because it's the right thing to do.



I agree. Comics are so cynical today.



How many evil Superman counterparts do we have these days as well? I'm not sure where the need to present corrupted versions of these characters comes from, other than yet more cynicism.

The modern-day counterpart to Kingdom Come (which was a reaction to the violence and recklessness of the late 80s/early 90s) would involve our heroes confronting and overcoming this cynicism, and choosing not to live such a jaded lifestyle. As it is, a core element of the story featured Superman rediscovering his humanity…

[Lord of Narrative]

Neither. Both suck and are bad for the character, as well as both being two different extremes.

Johns's Shazam! destroys the character's supporting and mythos, ruining the character himself, and all in all proving that Johns only writes the Marvel family to write Black Adam, as if Black Mary Marvel didn't already prove that.

Morrison's Thunderworld is another extreme, where the character are the most cliche, boring, generic, goody two shoes stock pieces of cardboard ever. No room for development of any kind, just cheese (big and red). No, the characters don't have to be douchebags like in Johns's version, but they could at least be something more than the 1 dimensional Pollyanna's that everyone foolishly thinks they are.

As for sales, sadly John's version, the greater evil, would win out. I hate this Earth.

[Dataweaver]

I’ll grant that Morrison has stereotyped the characters on (nearly?) every Multiversity title he’s written — to the point that if any of them were to be turned into an ongoing series, the tone would need to shift. For instance, the Just are a bit too shallow and self-absorbed to be something worth reading as is, and the Pax Americana are a bit too militaristic.

In the case of Thunderworld, Morrison has said that he was drawing on Pixar’s Incredibles for inspiration. Frankly, he missed the mark; but the target was a good one: a Thunderworld title done in the style of the Incredibles, where the supers have to deal with very real (and often mundane) problems such as lawsuits, school grades, overbearing bosses, and crushes, but still manage to be unapologetically superheroic, it would work considerably better than as presented.

Likewise, Johns’ Shazam has been a bit too cynical thus far; tone down that cynicism and let Billy and his family be a bit more like Pollyanna than they currently are, and a Shazam title would be a fascinating read.

[JBatmanFan05]

I wouldn't mind having both a Shazam and a Thunderworld series. DC can easily turn Thunderworld into a digital series so that way it does not interrupt the current flow of the New 52. Like they have already done with Adventures of Superman, Batman '66, etc. As for myself, I prefer Morrison's take on Captain Marvel instead of Johns'.

Great idea. And I agree on preferring Morrison's version. It's a shame Morrison said the story was all he had to say on those characters.

I just love Morrison's idea of silver age yet modern comics.

[Loona]

It's a shame Morrison said the story was all he had to say on those characters.

Where did he say this? Do you have a link to an interview?


As for the main topic, if given the choice, I'd prefer to see Thunderworld Captain Marvel succeed over New 52 Shazam, although I suspect one of them has a more consistent future than the other.

I was disappointed when I saw how Batson was handled in the New 52, especially soon after seeing how the character was handled in "Superman/Shazam: Return of Black Adam" even before he got his powers. There was a perfect guide on how to handle a modern take right there to be expanded upon.

Hearing about Thunderworld was a relief, although I was worried about Morrison handling it as a part of a multiverse event - I associate the guy perhaps a bit too much to his writing himself into the plot, so the focus being driven away from the actual characters was something of a concern. Yet he pulled it off, and peppered it with concepts relevant to the cast. I'm afraid his mind might be elsewhere in terms of stories though, but at least a piece of the DC multiverse now includes a classic take on the character and his original name.

Am I the only one hoping to someday see the Thunderworld cast meet their New 52 counterparts, and maybe "Major Max" from that "not-Marvel" Earth 8? I figure it could be interesting, at least, even if the current Multiversity run only hints at a role for Mary based on its 1st cover (well, and the character have a brief scene in the Guidebook comic, but nothing comes of it so far).

Still, I believe a hybrid approach is possible.

I could imagine Freddy acting the way new 52 Billy does. Wasn't CM Jr meant to be the edgier of the Marvel family comics back in its day? That attitude can still be plausible, just not by the character selected for being Earth's paragon spirit to carry a body that lets him do good in the world.

Both the JL Unlimited and Return of Black Adam animated versions of Captain Marvel assumed the existence of Superman and Billy admiring him, the first through a heartfelt speech, and the second by having Billy wear a Superman shirt under his red sweater. This can play into those characters'publishing history.
Is it so hard to imagine that Billy keeps his hope and conduct as upstanding as possible because he's seen Superman do good in the world, and in seeing him tackle major threats, hopes that we'll work his way down to the problems that afflict him personally. Some people try something similar due to religious culture, so in a world with super-heroes visibly doing some good in public, how unlikely is it for comparable attitudes to develop? (Unless, of course, the public image of superheroes is already in the gutter for the New 52 cast... but isn't that usually a Marvel thing?...).
Batson going above and beyond once empowered himself doesn't seem that far-fetched then - "be the change you wish to see in the world" can take on a whole new meaning by going from a powerless orphan to magic's chosen champion.

I understand the Curse of Shazam was going for a character arc of self-improvement,but it failed the character by going for such a mean-spirited starting point - it's one thing not to expect anything from others, but he didn't just think poorly of people, he openly insulted them.
In the origin story Batson was savvy enough to cut a deal to land himself a job - he helped a guy to keep his business, but instead of just asking for money in return he made a deal that allowed him to do more of what had landed him the job while supporting himself a bit better. Ethics and smarts have coexisted in the character right from the start..

If the DC universe can include something like Lobo's amusing, unstoppable and rarely punished sociopathy, why shouldn't it also contain Captain Marvel as a beacon of what a super-hero can/should be?
(oddly, Lobo hasn't actually addressed in Multiversity so far, AFAIK, so maybe that character is even more static than the Captain, only in the opposite direction, that even the multiverse can't come up with variations on him?)