Superman & Wonder Woman Appreciation!

[DieHard200904]

What is this "Mark Waid Rule" that y'all are talking about?

The rule is that Superman gets with Wonder Woman by process of elimination. It is that Superman's other possible love interests have to die before Superman gets with Wonder Woman. This was broken in JLA Act of God when Kal gets divorced, or The Dark Knight Strikes Again where they have been having an affair since 18 years before, and the other love interests are not dead until the end of The Dark Knight Strikes Again when they get crushed and burned to death when the Entire Daily Planet building collapses with them inside.

Then, they had a relationship in the N52 with other possible/previous continuity interests still alive while it was going on.

[A Guy's Name]

Here's an idea: SuperDad is temporary. Ne-52 Superman's coming back.
New-52 Diana getting retcons, different Hippolyta, different Amazons, and some other stuff. Getting some memories back with the 10 years gap and Rebirth thing.
Basically, with this they can restart or reboot the relationship. Superman's been having a relationship with Wonder Woman for much, MUCH longer time than we know.
Clark/Kal will be getting to know Diana again in a way.
So maybe, if and when, a SMWW book or stories with it come again, it'll be with some new stuff put in. They're not finished with SMWW, certainly not finished with a Superman that was supposed to be the replacement for a defective one that caused the 2011 reboot.
With SuperDad and his Lois there, there's not a need to have another Clois couple.
Maybe the new SMWW book can feature "Lost Episodes", as it were.

[Sacred Knight]

Read the Rebirth spoilers, and well there's two ways of looking at things. One possibly good, one possibly bad (I try to avoid the over-arching plot spoilers and spoilers for other characters as much as possible here, but still read at your own risk).
spoilers:

The Superdad and Lois scenes have them talking about New 52 Superman's recent death, and them both noting how they noticed some events from their past world has repeated on this one, so they're hopeful that Superman will come back to life like Superdad did. To me that's a pretty significant hint. On the other hand, without getting too detailed, its seems like they want to drop New 52 continuity in with pre-Flashpoint continuity by basically saying the New 52 IS the pre-Flashpoint Earth, just altered by other forces. In this case it has me worried that they might try to say that Superdad, via being bottled in Convergence, is the "true" Superman of the world after all and New 52 Superman and Lois are placeholders of some kind because the real ones were gone when the world underwent its changes. Though to me the way things are being set up it'd be more apt to say that the New 52 Superman and Lois are, in reality, the pre-Flashpoint characters just changed. Making Superdad and his wife still anomalies. I guess they could play it either way. Its confusing, maybe too confusing to even be worth it, but what else is new, right? Long story short, this either means the Superman that Diana loves is going to be resurrected, or its going to mean she was in love with a guy who wasn't even the real Superman to begin with by continuity standards thus essentially removing the SM/WW relationship from canon once again.

end of spoilers

[Lokimaru]

Read the Rebirth spoilers, and well there's two ways of looking at things. One possibly good, one possibly bad (I try to avoid the over-arching plot spoilers and spoilers for other characters as much as possible here, but still read at your own risk).
spoilers:

The Superdad and Lois scenes have them talking about New 52 Superman's recent death, and them both noting how they noticed some events from their past world has repeated on this one, so they're hopeful that Superman will come back to life like Superdad did. To me that's a pretty significant hint. On the other hand, without getting too detailed, its seems like they want to drop New 52 continuity in with pre-Flashpoint continuity by basically saying the New 52 IS the pre-Flashpoint Earth, just altered by other forces. In this case it has me worried that they might try to say that Superdad, via being bottled in Convergence, is the "true" Superman of the world after all and New 52 Superman and Lois are placeholders of some kind because the real ones were gone when the world underwent its changes. Though to me the way things are being set up it'd be more apt to say that the New 52 Superman and Lois are, in reality, the pre-Flashpoint characters just changed. Making Superdad and his wife still anomalies. I guess they could play it either way. Its confusing, maybe too confusing to even be worth it, but what else is new, right? Long story short, this either means the Superman that Diana loves is going to be resurrected, or its going to mean she was in love with a guy who wasn't even the real Superman to begin with by continuity standards thus essentially removing the SM/WW relationship from canon once again.

end of spoilers

But that's the rub though, Superdad and his Lois are... Photographs of what came before given Life, Pieces of Time in a bottle as it were. The Cutting of a plant replanted to grow on it's own while the main plant grew and changed Separate from it. Look at Aquaman, He's not Orin but they are not killing him and replacing him with the Hook handed one even though that's the version most people know from the Justice League Cartoon? But the Arthur Curry version has been getting a push lately and Johns wrote an awesome series so Screw you Orin. People act like Supes is the Only thing different about the New 52 and that's just not the case.

[Prime]

Read the Rebirth spoilers, and well there's two ways of looking at things. One possibly good, one possibly bad (I try to avoid the over-arching plot spoilers and spoilers for other characters as much as possible here, but still read at your own risk).
spoilers:

The Superdad and Lois scenes have them talking about New 52 Superman's recent death, and them both noting how they noticed some events from their past world has repeated on this one, so they're hopeful that Superman will come back to life like Superdad did. To me that's a pretty significant hint. On the other hand, without getting too detailed, its seems like they want to drop New 52 continuity in with pre-Flashpoint continuity by basically saying the New 52 IS the pre-Flashpoint Earth, just altered by other forces. In this case it has me worried that they might try to say that Superdad, via being bottled in Convergence, is the "true" Superman of the world after all and New 52 Superman and Lois are placeholders of some kind because the real ones were gone when the world underwent its changes. Though to me the way things are being set up it'd be more apt to say that the New 52 Superman and Lois are, in reality, the pre-Flashpoint characters just changed. Making Superdad and his wife still anomalies. I guess they could play it either way. Its confusing, maybe too confusing to even be worth it, but what else is new, right? Long story short, this either means the Superman that Diana loves is going to be resurrected, or its going to mean she was in love with a guy who wasn't even the real Superman to begin with by continuity standards thus essentially removing the SM/WW relationship from canon once again.

end of spoilers

So I spent 5 years reading someone that never existed? WTF????

[DieHard200904]

If DC wants to be so complicated, I just don't see myself sticking around and getting their books, because they shouldn't be the most complicated reading materials out there. These are comic books. I want to get some kicks out of them, but not to the wierd point of wrapping my head around something that they mindlessly retcon.

[adrikito]

So I spent 5 years reading someone that never existed? WTF????

That seems ... New 52 Superman was "never who we thought he was".. everything was false..

He has been 5 years for nothing .. to be an incomplete superman.. DC obeyed his old fans anti-new52..


He was never for young fans.. and never will be.

[A Guy's Name]

I still think we should have the wait-and-see approach. All this **** is confusing still right now.
I still bet SuperDad being SM's temporary. We don't have the full picture yet with Nu-Superman.

[DieHard200904]

I still think we should have the wait-and-see approach. All this **** is confusing still right now.
I still bet SuperDad being SM's temporary. We don't have the full picture yet with Nu-Superman.

Most likely yes. I came around to think though, that as I write in my general comic book complaints, the Death card is overplayed. What better way to improve the Death card than create doubt? It does jerk around a bit, but if death is so common for superheroes, doubt is the best way to play it better.

[NYCER]

If DC wants to be so complicated, I just don't see myself sticking around and getting their books, because they shouldn't be the most complicated reading materials out there. These are comic books. I want to get some kicks out of them, but not to the wierd point of wrapping my head around something that they mindlessly retcon.

That's where dropping the books is the only solution. I'm not going to pay money to get frustrated by DC. Again. And Again. And again. Who knows how long #Afterbirth will last? What contrivance would DC use then to replace the #Afterbirthverse? It's too headache-inducing, especially this latest round of damned spoilers.

[hellacre]

Naw I am done. This is not how you go about resolving a verse...even if you want to reboot.

Pre new 52 fans got a happy ending for their Superman. Least they were left with a sense of hope. We all got suckered into buying DC product for 5 years and we get a slap to the face. They gave our Superman cancer guys. They now implying he is not who he is? I have no time for this rubbish.

I will never support this pre new 52 Superman. You want me to like him? You don't pull this stunt. Both Superman could have had a place in the multiverse. But DC wants to cater to people who have "long boxes". They sending a clear message to other fans. Your kind is not welcomed at DC.

[DieHard200904]

Naw I am done. This is not how you go about resolving a verse...even if you want to reboot.

Pre new 52 fans got a happy ending for their Superman. Least they were left with a sense of hope. We all got suckered into buying DC product for 5 years and we get a slap to the face. They gave our Superman cancer guys. They now implying he is not who he is? I have no time for this rubbish.

I will never support this pre new 52 Superman. You want me to like him? You don't pull this stunt. Both Superman could have had a place in the multiverse. But DC wants to cater to people who have "long boxes". They sending a clear message to other fans. Your kind is not welcomed at DC.

He ended up giving it out until he died. That counts to me a great deal. The remainder of what was going on though is what grated my nerves the most. JSA 14-22 was better than what I am seeing right now,IMO. Hate to day this but Marvel looks better by the day, image as well.

[Prime]

Naw I am done. This is not how you go about resolving a verse...even if you want to reboot.

Pre new 52 fans got a happy ending for their Superman. Least they were left with a sense of hope. We all got suckered into buying DC product for 5 years and we get a slap to the face. They gave our Superman cancer guys. They now implying he is not who he is? I have no time for this rubbish.

I will never support this pre new 52 Superman. You want me to like him? You don't pull this stunt. Both Superman could have had a place in the multiverse. But DC wants to cater to people who have "long boxes". They sending a clear message to other fans. Your kind is not welcomed at DC.

When Superman goes, so will I. I gave Superdad his chance 5 years ago....but grounded. And like you said, if they wanted me to like him, this wasn't the way. Come next week, I am gone.

[Sacred Knight]

Hell I have a long box and his doesn't appeal to me. I'm one of the older fans whose part of the appeal of the reboot was starting over and seeing a young Superman grow. Spending so long with the vet, I was satisfied in that department and looking for a new take. Unfortuntaely that take only lasted a few years. I think the best case scenario is that we're going to find out that both Supermen are two parts of a whole that need to be reunited, Lois too. But that will still leave us in the end with older incarnations who are, married, and have a kid. And that's just not where my interest lays anymore.

Its basically what I thought their response would be. Overcompensation. This time in regards to the legacy. Losing it all was indeed a bad move. But now they're overdoing it. Its going to be all legacy all the time. The major heroes are all going to be middle aged with progeny constantly being focused on as the heirs to the main heroes because everyone needs a legacy. Only problem is some heroes don't.

As for the relationship, I think its deader than dead. Diana will resolve her feelings over working with Superdad, which also allows her to move on from her grief. By the time the end game for the two-Superman situation is finally resolved and they merge, they won't even acknowledge the relationship anymore because its already been dealt with previously with her coming to terms and moving on. Finally, sometime after that, I could see the mere fact that it even happened being quietly just retconned out entirely.

I'll be majorly surprised, perhaps even happily, if the plans are different and I'm wrong. But what I'm feeling here is a wholesale eventual removal of everything New 52, masked by the official mantra of "Oh we're just dropping it into Pre-FP history".

Maybe one day Superman will just get an individual OMD and redo to make him more interesting again, I dunno. But that would be a ways away and I'm tired of staying on board but dreading what's to come. If I'm a fan of something I want to be excited for it, not dread it.

[Xarek]

My thoughts exactly. I've read Rebirth 1 and to me it is definitely not newbie friendly. Been reading DC for a long while and I had to resort to some issue digging and DC Encyclopedia tracking to figure out some stuff! (never read much of the flash side of things so Wally's return is meh for me).
The Watchmen angle got a smirk outta me tho. Cute. And something only Johns could pull off. But this being his final issue ever, I have no idea who is going to be creative enough to steer the DC ship from July onward. There is a tangled mess of origins now. And with the Titans, Legion, JSA back into the fold who can sort this out?

My concerns remain. They are leaving some new52 doors open: N52 Superman dead, but might return; N52 Lois (superwoman), dying, but might not; Wonder Woman, focus on the past, or the present (brother wtf?). All in case the sales slump drastically. Otherwise.... yeah. In general this is indeed a reset. Don't envy the newcomers here at all. And some vets as well. Heck why would I want to return to reading the convoluted mess of stories that drove me away from DC in the first place!

On the sm/ww side of things... this is not good. Basically swept under the rug.