Thoughts on Superman's vulnerability to magic.

[llozymandias]

At least some versions of Superman generate/radiated vast power when using their powers. Luthor (& others) have found ways to use that power for their own purposes. Luthor created armor that was powered by that super-energy. With that armor Luthor was able to fight Superman on around equal terms. Most objects created by magic seem to be ineffective against Superman, unless they are powered by magic. Magic seems to be the ability to manipulate certain unspecified forms of energy. What if the super-energy Superman generates is close enough to magic, that magic users (& magical objects) can use it against him?

[Powerboy]

At least some versions of Superman generate/radiated vast power when using their powers. Luthor (& others) have found ways to use that power for their own purposes. Luthor created armor that was powered by that super-energy. With that armor Luthor was able to fight Superman on around equal terms. Most objects created by magic seem to be ineffective against Superman, unless they are powered by magic. Magic seems to be the ability to manipulate certain unspecified forms of energy. What if the super-energy Superman generates is close enough to magic, that magic users (& magical objects) can use it against him?

It's kind of an interesting idea. I think it goes a bit against the grain of the standard explanation which is that Krypton had evolved to such an advanced state through science (ie. a logical and rational view of the universe) that evolved Kryptonian genetics hard a hard time coping with that which seemed to elude all rational and scientific explanation (magic). So it was in their very nature to have a difficult time coping with magic both conceptually and in terms of the practical. This equated to a "weakness" to magic.

[DochaDocha]

I also embrace the definition of magic, in a DC Comics context, as simply a way to manipulate matter, energy, and other elements of the universe. So, depending on the nature of the magic, Superman might be invulnerable to it, or he might not be invulnerable to it. Most of the time, it boils down to whether or not the magic spell (for lack of a better word) was potent enough to get the job done. This is in direct contrast to many writers who insist that any and all magic works against Superman, and against more so contrary to writers who insist that Superman is especially weak against magic compared to anyone else.

[llozymandias]

It's kind of an interesting idea. I think it goes a bit against the grain of the standard explanation which is that Krypton had evolved to such an advanced state through science (ie. a logical and rational view of the universe) that evolved Kryptonian genetics hard a hard time coping with that which seemed to elude all rational and scientific explanation (magic). So it was in their very nature to have a difficult time coping with magic both conceptually and in terms of the practical. This equated to a "weakness" to magic.

I'm sorry, but this standard explanation sounds pretty stupid.

[llozymandias]

I also embrace the definition of magic, in a DC Comics context, as simply a way to manipulate matter, energy, and other elements of the universe. So, depending on the nature of the magic, Superman might be invulnerable to it, or he might not be invulnerable to it. Most of the time, it boils down to whether or not the magic spell (for lack of a better word) was potent enough to get the job done. This is in direct contrast to many writers who insist that any and all magic works against Superman, and against more so contrary to writers who insist that Superman is especially weak against magic compared to anyone else.

It would be interesting to see a powerful sorcerer discover that Superman is completely invulnerable to his magic.

[Powerboy]

I'm sorry, but this standard explanation sounds pretty stupid.

Actually, there are genetic predispositions towards certain things.

[Powerboy]

I also embrace the definition of magic, in a DC Comics context, as simply a way to manipulate matter, energy, and other elements of the universe. So, depending on the nature of the magic, Superman might be invulnerable to it, or he might not be invulnerable to it. Most of the time, it boils down to whether or not the magic spell (for lack of a better word) was potent enough to get the job done. This is in direct contrast to many writers who insist that any and all magic works against Superman, and against more so contrary to writers who insist that Superman is especially weak against magic compared to anyone else.

Yeah, it's never been consistent. In one story, he gets hit by a blast of pure magical energy that knocks him to the other side of the planet and he comes back from it. And that was the Silver Age Superman for whom magic and kryptonite were devastating weaknesses. In another story, he has no more durability against it than a normal human.

[Slaughter]

I think the best definition of magic is from the game Arcanum:
Science and Magic are two sides of the same coin - Science relies on harnessing the natural physical laws of the universe, Magic warps, alters or negates the laws of physics. This also means magic and science don't do well near each other.

From all stories I remember from post-crisis, Supes ins't extra-vulnerable to magic, he just has zero protection against it. Similar to psionics, except I think Superman is actually MORE protected against them - I don't remember any story where Superman is turned into some mind-controlled puppet casually, it always takes some resistance, or some ruse, before he falls, and even then they often can't have him do certain things (like Maxwell Lord's continuous failure to make Superman kill).

Busiek's explanation for why Thor's Hammer didn't batter Superman too bad also makes sense - if it had a BREAK EVERYTHING spell cast on it, then Superman would've been broken, but it doesn't so it didn't - A HIT HARDER spell, on the other hand, would't bypass his invulnerability. On the other hand, Supes could't pick the hammer without being allowed to - not because the hammer is heavy and Superman is unable to lift it, but because it has a enchantment that disallows the non-worthy from picking it, and it essentially tells the laws of physics to get bent, no matter how much force you apply. This example also applies to, for example, Captain Marvel/Shazam's fists - his magic gives him superstrength, it doesn't give him "magical punches".

(compare Thor's Hammer vs Hephastus' Sword, the latter which is clearly told to CUT EVERYTHING. Superman's skin fits into EVERYTHING)

[DrNewGod]

I've generally thought of Superman's strength and invulnerability as properties of psychokinesis (the way Byrne positioned it). Thus, a physical object, no matter its nature, probably won't penetrate his psionic defenses. An attack of psionic or mystical energy, on the other hand, or an object radiating such energy,might penetrate his psi defenses and leave him with only abnormally robust (but not invulnerable) body to cope. However, assuming Superman's invulnerability is psionic, the more an attack took him off guard, the less effective you would expect his defenses to be.

[Savage Savant]

Maybe a writer should create an evil wizard villain for Superman perhaps? This could possibly address Superman's vulnerability to magic.

[Captain Haddock]

I think the best definition of magic is from the game Arcanum:
Science and Magic are two sides of the same coin - Science relies on harnessing the natural physical laws of the universe, Magic warps, alters or negates the laws of physics. This also means magic and science don't do well near each other.

From all stories I remember from post-crisis, Supes ins't extra-vulnerable to magic, he just has zero protection against it. Similar to psionics, except I think Superman is actually MORE protected against them - I don't remember any story where Superman is turned into some mind-controlled puppet casually, it always takes some resistance, or some ruse, before he falls, and even then they often can't have him do certain things (like Maxwell Lord's continuous failure to make Superman kill).

Busiek's explanation for why Thor's Hammer didn't batter Superman too bad also makes sense - if it had a BREAK EVERYTHING spell cast on it, then Superman would've been broken, but it doesn't so it didn't - A HIT HARDER spell, on the other hand, would't bypass his invulnerability. On the other hand, Supes could't pick the hammer without being allowed to - not because the hammer is heavy and Superman is unable to lift it, but because it has a enchantment that disallows the non-worthy from picking it, and it essentially tells the laws of physics to get bent, no matter how much force you apply. This example also applies to, for example, Captain Marvel/Shazam's fists - his magic gives him superstrength, it doesn't give him "magical punches".

(compare Thor's Hammer vs Hephastus' Sword, the latter which is clearly told to CUT EVERYTHING. Superman's skin fits into EVERYTHING)

Agreed, Superman doesn't react the same way to magic as he would to kryptonite - he simply has no innate defences in the same way his durability is against physical force. If a magic character summons 'normal' lightning by means of a spell it's not going to hurt Superman any more than a run of the mill lightning bolt would have done; but if the same character has a spell that (for example) turns him into a frog, he'd turn into a frog. His Kryptonian nature will not affect it in the slightest.

[Slaughter]

Maybe a writer should create an evil wizard villain for Superman perhaps? This could possibly address Superman's vulnerability to magic.

Supes already has some arcane villains, they just need to be re-introduced - Silver Banshee, Lady Blaze and Lord Satanus, La Encantadora, Rakkar the last demon of krypton from Superman #666... in fact, we already saw Silver Banshee and Lady Blaze in Supergirl, and where Blaze goes Satanus is sure to show up somewhere.

(Mxy doesn't count, he's not a magical user, he just uses Sufficiently Advanced Science)

[Abishai100]

Clark Kent believes in Metropolis and therefore works for the Daily Planet. His super-identity as the Man of Steel is a reversed expression of Kal-El's intention to practice what he preaches --- justice and fair play.

Superman seems to have all the qualities of a strong-man, so it seems logical not to endow him with an exuberant interest in magic or superstition. Superman/Kal-El's greatest connection magic seems to be his life-affirming crystal which he inherited from Krypton.

Beyond that, Superman is susceptible to the chemical voodoo of kryptonite, the machinations of elaborate devious gadgets (perhaps invented by the evil Brainiac), and the dark powers and nuclear energies of the likes of General Zod and Nuclear Man.

Magic is the belief in the superstition value of illusions. Superman relies on his faith in the ever-flowing forces of life and not necessarily magic or superstition, which is why it makes sense that he can fall prey to bizarre plots involving hallucinations, dark powers, witchcraft, synthetic energies, etc.

I think to understand Superman's position in the magic/force debate, we should pit him against one of his strange female nemeses, the super-villain Ursa who has worked with the diabolical General Zod, the leader of a rebellion on Krypton who was expelled by Kal-El's father.

Ursa is ruthless and powerful and strong. She uses femininity in an advocacy for unnatural female rage and therefore invites comic book fans to consider the connections between female mystique and anarchy (or dark powers). This makes it easy to compare Ursa to a witch.

Superman's vulnerability to the evil Ursa seems to suggest that we really don't want Superman/Kal-El to be preoccupied with magic.








Ursa

[MarvelMaster616]

The more I think about it, the more I suspect that Superman's vulnerability to magic is built entirely around the idea that he needs another vulnerability besides kryptonite. A lot of fans complain about how Superman is too powerful and needs more flaws. Magic is just convenient because it's so difficult to define and quantify. And when a subject is obscure, it means that writers don't have to go through the trouble of explaining it and that's basically gold in the world of comics.

[Powerboy]

The more I think about it, the more I suspect that Superman's vulnerability to magic is built entirely around the idea that he needs another vulnerability besides kryptonite. A lot of fans complain about how Superman is too powerful and needs more flaws. Magic is just convenient because it's so difficult to define and quantify. And when a subject is obscure, it means that writers don't have to go through the trouble of explaining it and that's basically gold in the world of comics.

Yes both the Kryptonite and magic weaknesses come, I think, from an era where it was said that Hal Jordan and Wonder Woman combining their forces could not stop him for long and when he was considered more powerful than anyone else (short of the Spectre and company) by quite a bit. Later, when he was just one of the guys in terms of power, it backfired because he was in the same general power level as everybody else and weaker than some while also having glaring weaknesses that were created to give him some vulnerabilities when he was way above everyone else.