Was The Dark Knight Returns one of the worst or one of the best things to happen to Superman?

[t hedge coke]

I said he's the same writer who wrote Superman w/sensitivity & beauty while also creating the very dark Watchmen. Miller has never displayed this kind of range. Closest you get is the absolutely beautiful line he put in Cap's mouth in Born Again, a Daredevil story. And it was beautiful. But would I like to see him handle Captain America? Hell no I wouldn't; he's just not the kind of character that I think fits Miller's oeuvre, & I could see it being a total trainwreck on the order of Superman at his hands in TDKR. But he has nothing to compare w/those 2 classic Superman tales bookending one side w/Watchmen anchoring the other. That's what I was getting at.

Big Guy and Rusty the Boy Robot. Hell and Back. 300. DKSA. Elektra Lives Again. Rats.

That's a pretty wide range.

But, again, I don't expect you to be convinced, because you sound very sure and something like "range" or "breadth and understanding" in this situation is almost entirely a matter of taste and perspective.

[manduck37]

Here is the problem:

I've read it all before: Miller didn't like the effect that TDKR had for Superman. The story wasn't about the fight. Fans and writers interpreted it badly. Superman wasn't shown badly (I highly disagree with that.) Batman fans and writers don't care about the fight scene.

Okay.

How did Zack Snyder announce the second movie?

"I want you to remember Clark. In all the years to come. My hand at your throat."


All your arguments. All your rationalizations. All the 'deeper' themes of TDKR. Are resumed to that sentence.

Batman doesn't need to fight Superman to be cool? Explain why it was announced with that sentence.

TDKR is about the deeper themes? Explain why it was announced with that sentence.

Explain what the heck Snyder meant after the announcement. "It's not what we gonna do but it's totally what we gonna do, yall."

Batman fans don't want to see the fight? Explain why they howled like hyenas after the announcement and after the trailer "Do you bleed?"

TDKR didn't influence how Batman and Superman were written in the years to come? Explain how the freaking movie was announced with that sentence.



All your explanations. All rationalizations. All reasoning. And the freaking movie gets announced with that quote.

You kind of answered your own question here, fans and writers interpreted it badly. TDKR was taken at face value rather than people taking the time to explore the themes Miller was working with. Director Zack Snyder is known for having a great visual style and doing wonders with visuals but also known for missing the point. Style not substance, if you will.

[sta8541]

Here is the problem:

I've read it all before: Miller didn't like the effect that TDKR had for Superman. The story wasn't about the fight. Fans and writers interpreted it badly. Superman wasn't shown badly (I highly disagree with that.) Batman fans and writers don't care about the fight scene.

Okay.

How did Zack Snyder announce the second movie?

"I want you to remember Clark. In all the years to come. My hand at your throat."

All your arguments. All your rationalizations. All the 'deeper' themes of TDKR. Are resumed to that sentence.

Batman doesn't need to fight Superman to be cool? Explain why it was announced with that sentence.

TDKR is about the deeper themes? Explain why it was announced with that sentence.

Explain what the heck Snyder meant after the announcement. "It's not what we gonna do but it's totally what we gonna do, yall."

Batman fans don't want to see the fight? Explain why they howled like hyenas after the announcement and after the trailer "Do you bleed?"

TDKR didn't influence how Batman and Superman were written in the years to come? Explain how the freaking movie was announced with that sentence.

All your explanations. All rationalizations. All reasoning. And the freaking movie gets announced with that quote.

And this is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about, the bad effect it's had overall on Superman. It's a real crossover point in the books b/c after COIE, Byrne began to power down Superman at around the same time Miller's TDKR hit the stands, the very beginnings of the "batgod phenomenon" (whoever else may have enhanced it later, it pretty much began here). And it's never really reversed trend, as evidenced by this post & the upcoming film. Even the title, which was initially pitched as "The next installment of the Man of Steel" i.e. Man of Steel 2, is now "Batman vs. Superman." Seems like Batman is fighting either Superman or the League as much as the Joker anymore. The more of that kind of thing DC does the more popular batgod becomes, seemingly. Meanwhile, I think they are actually depowering Superman completely in this current arc, while Batman is fresh off of annihilating the Justice League. A more stark contrast about the perception of both these characters by DC editorial couldn't be drawn.

And it started w/the reactions flowing out of The Dark Knight Returns.

PS. I liked the "howled like hyenas" thing, lol.

[Lorendiac]

Here is the problem:

I've read it all before: Miller didn't like the effect that TDKR had for Superman. The story wasn't about the fight. Fans and writers interpreted it badly. Superman wasn't shown badly (I highly disagree with that.) Batman fans and writers don't care about the fight scene.

Okay.

How did Zack Snyder announce the second movie?

"I want you to remember Clark. In all the years to come. My hand at your throat."


All your arguments. All your rationalizations. All the 'deeper' themes of TDKR. Are resumed to that sentence.

Batman doesn't need to fight Superman to be cool? Explain why it was announced with that sentence.

TDKR is about the deeper themes? Explain why it was announced with that sentence.

Explain what the heck Snyder meant after the announcement. "It's not what we gonna do but it's totally what we gonna do, yall."

Batman fans don't want to see the fight? Explain why they howled like hyenas after the announcement and after the trailer "Do you bleed?"

TDKR didn't influence how Batman and Superman were written in the years to come? Explain how the freaking movie was announced with that sentence.



All your explanations. All rationalizations. All reasoning. And the freaking movie gets announced with that quote.

I'd forgotten all about this thread. Funny to see it coming back to life after being dead for a year!

Looking back, I see that my sole contribution to it, a year ago, was to say loud and clear that I completely disagreed with the basic assumption in the title and the text of the Original Post (about Miller's DKR having either a very good or a very bad influence on subsequent treatment of Superman in DC's comics books). I did not think Miller's DKR had much impact on how Superman was rebooted shortly thereafter for the Post-Crisis era, and how he was then consistently portrayed in his regular monthly titles for the next 15 years or more (all the way into the early 2000s). I figured John Byrne et al. would have rebooted Superman and his supporting cast, and gradually developed his Post-Crisis continuity, in just about the same way, regardless of anything Frank Miller had or hadn't done.

And I still stand by that!

Which doesn't contradict your point about the significance of more recent developments regarding the hype for the upcoming movie. Things have changed in the last year. We've had, as you say, Zach Snyder saying and doing things which indicate that the big Supes/Bats fight scene in DKR is having a powerful influence on his cinematic treatment of those characters. Of course we haven't seen the finished product yet, but we feel we have a pretty good idea of what the general tone is likely to be.

And a heck of a lot more people are likely to watch that big-screen movie in 2016 (or later, on DVD or whatever), then were actually reading the Superman comic books in the 1990s. (Tens of millions for the movie, versus what, maybe several tens of thousands in a typical month in the 1990s?) Their attitudes towards "what the Superman brand name 'really means' when it's attached to a new piece of storytelling in any medium" are bound to be heavily influenced by that experience.

So I'd say that my slightly modified response to the original question in the thread title has now become: "Was DKR one of the worst (or best) things that happened to Superman in terms of its influence on him over the next 20 years or so after DKR was first published? No -- despite some people's exaggerated claims, DKR made precious little difference at the time! But is DKR now being used as an 'inspiration' for movies that are bound to have a bad effect on the public perception of Superman among zillions of people who aren't diehard comic book collectors and don't know the difference between, say, 'DC Comics Superman' and 'Zach Snyder Superman'? Yes."

[sta8541]

For me, even worse for Batman. It led to the Uber-Bat.

I miss that affable fallible and friendly guy who was "merely" the world's greatest detective that I followed through the Brave and Bold adventures of blessed memory.

How about it?! Man, I miss that guy too! Loved the Dini one-shots too, in Detective...where he was (again) "merely" the world's greatest detective.

[sta8541]

Big Guy and Rusty the Boy Robot. Hell and Back. 300. DKSA. Elektra Lives Again. Rats.

That's a pretty wide range.

But, again, I don't expect you to be convinced, because you sound very sure and something like "range" or "breadth and understanding" in this situation is almost entirely a matter of taste and perspective.

DKR. Ronin. DKSA. This upcoming DK installment. Daredevil. Holy Terror. Sin City.

It is about taste, & I don't think Miller has it where Superman & characters like him are concerned, that's all. Parts of Dark Knight I liked.

[Johnny Thunders!]

I love Frank Miller's books, but it's not inaccurate to say Superman is played as a stooge. It set the pattern of Superman as naive and somewhat helpless with Batman being the cranky always lecturing pragmatist. You know what really bothers me, it's not even an original take on superheroes. Batman became Wolverine and Superman was played as Cyclops.

[t hedge coke]

DKR. Ronin. DKSA. This upcoming DK installment. Daredevil. Holy Terror. Sin City.

It is about taste, & I don't think Miller has it where Superman & characters like him are concerned, that's all. Parts of Dark Knight I liked.

Are you honestly using, as a counter-example, a comic that hasn't come out, that we know virtually nothing about?

[dumbduck]

Batman Year One is the best damn comic I have ever read. I still have it. I've sold/thrown away all my Superman comics of the time but still keep Year One. I've read that it's more a Gordon story than Batman's. I don't think so, Bruce's journey as he arrived in Gotham was perfectly detailed for me.

When I watched Batman Begins I was giddy with excitement when he escaped with the bats. I knew it was going to happen. I explained to friends and family the siginificance of the scene. I also remember that when young Bruce is watching the theather play, one of the characters is wearing the mask of the crow and the mask of the bat from 'Shaman'.

That's it. It doesn't delete the fact that DKR was completely delirant about Superman. The guy dealt with cosmic mob bosses and interdimensional drug traffickers. There's just no way he'd bow down to a single Earth government. And then the reboot came and he was powered down, dumbed down and lost all of his cosmic side. And in 'Legends' he kowtowed to US government again. A giant monster on the loose, Jason Todd almost killed for the 1st time and he was talking and obbeying Ronnie. That was the end of DC comics for me.

[sta8541]

I love Frank Miller's books, but it's not inaccurate to say Superman is played as a stooge. It set the pattern of Superman as naive and somewhat helpless with Batman being the cranky always lecturing pragmatist. You know what really bothers me, it's not even an original take on superheroes. Batman became Wolverine and Superman was played as Cyclops.

That's an interesting observation.

[sta8541]

Are you honestly using, as a counter-example, a comic that hasn't come out, that we know virtually nothing about?

We know plenty about the first 2 installments of the Dark Knight "trilogy," not to mention the excrement that is All-Star Batman & Robin (aka ASBAR, pronounced ass-bar) which Miller specifically linked to his vision of the Bat, so yes, I honestly am. Why would I expect anything different? I hope I'm wrong about it, truly, but I've no reason to expect anything other than what we've gotten in that exact same vein, as far as Superman goes.

[Jon-El]

I was in my early teens when it came out. I don't remember anyone approaching the story as intellectually as people are today. Batman was able to defeat Superman. That's all it came down to. This old guy with no powers was able to develop a plan to beat the most powerful character in the universe & he smirked when he did it. That's summed up the issue for many people.

This was a different interpretation of Batman. He was supremely competent before this & but he'd never been so cold & calculating. He'd never been so over the top aggressive. There's the scene when he's beating the mutant guy & he says something like "A voice tells me to stop with the leg. I don't listen to it". Something like that. To a 14 yr old in the era of Arnold, Stallone, & Norris, that was so cool!! Batman just had the coolness factor that Superman lacked. Superman either gets you as a child because of his powers or gets you as an adult because of the ideals he represents. Batman is a teen boys fantasy with his attitude, his car & gadgets.

[dumbduck]

And this is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about, the bad effect it's had overall on Superman. It's a real crossover point in the books b/c after COIE, Byrne began to power down Superman at around the same time Miller's TDKR hit the stands, the very beginnings of the "batgod phenomenon" (whoever else may have enhanced it later, it pretty much began here). And it's never really reversed trend, as evidenced by this post & the upcoming film. Even the title, which was initially pitched as "The next installment of the Man of Steel" i.e. Man of Steel 2, is now "Batman vs. Superman." Seems like Batman is fighting either Superman or the League as much as the Joker anymore. The more of that kind of thing DC does the more popular batgod becomes, seemingly. Meanwhile, I think they are actually depowering Superman completely in this current arc, while Batman is fresh off of annihilating the Justice League. A more stark contrast about the perception of both these characters by DC editorial couldn't be drawn.

And it started w/the reactions flowing out of The Dark Knight Returns.

PS. I liked the "howled like hyenas" thing, lol.

The powering down of Superman in this arc has nothing to do with Batman, don't worry about that. Give this arc a chance, man. I agree the character didn't need a full de/reconstruction, but it's more than that. It's about hopefully giving the character back his due.

About the bolded part, just from my observations of the 52 alone, it seems that Superman was kryptonited/red suned by Batman alone more times than by all villains he faced put together.

I'm willing to bet that also happened in the 10/15 last years pre52. That's what this 'friendship' has resumed itself into.

It's also emblematic of what the characters became that All Star Superman was an inspiring story full of hope, where he worries mostly about his own story, but even then pays his respect to Batman. While All Star Batman was a perfect snapshot of the effect DKR had on comics and cartoons(Bruce Timmverse) up to that time, wasting pages upon pages with disdain for other superheroes. What the heck. Write about Batman, stop being so jealous of other heroes.

'Superman' the character, the franchise, is quiet and happy in his corner of the world. He's respectful of other heroes. 'Batman' I'd say , I'd illustrate, is a jealous little boy full of resentment who has to prove his superiority at least once a year. 30 years of having the ball, the court and the referee is not enough. Yet if we Supes' fans point out their immaturity somehow it's us who are 'bitching and moaning'. Mind boggling.

BTW, as long as Superman has kryptonite and red sun weakness this wont stop. Look what Miller did with Green Lantern's yellow weakness in ASBAR. Look what Scott Snyder did not only with Supes but the whole JL recently. They just can't help themselves.

[Vanguard-01]

As far as Snyder making BvS like DKR? I don't know where to find it, but there's a video compiling all of Snyder's interviews, where he SPECIFICALLY states that although he is a fan of DKR, he's using it as a template of what NOT to do with Superman in his movies.

Don't remember the exact quote, but he basically said that this movie will not be "DKR the Movie."

[sta8541]

The powering down of Superman in this arc has nothing to do with Batman, don't worry about that. Give this arc a chance, man. I agree the character didn't need a full de/reconstruction, but it's more than that. It's about hopefully giving the character back his due.

I apologize about leaving you w/the impression that I mind them powering down Superman; I've read stories where Supes has no powers at all & I thoroughly enjoyed them. Know why? B/c he's still Superman, that's why, even w/out the powers. There was a really inspiring line, pretty sure it was from a JLA book, I forget the specifics, but there was a kid that needed to be rescued & Superman turns to the team that had been depowered & he was like "OK: there's a boy inside that needs our help, surrounded by aliens, & we have no powers. We're getting that boy out of there." Is there ANY doubt about what's going to happen, that they will get that kid out w/out a scratch, even w/out powers? No, I don't think so, lol. It was great. My point was more an "intersection in time" thing, Batman getting ramped up (gradually), while they were taking steps to tone down Superman, that's all. And that while he is being depowered, batgod is able to whip the whole League w/out even breaking a sweat (as Tony Stark, apparently, lol). It's a dynamic that's been deliberately set up by DC b/c Batman is just ridiculously popular & they wish to feed the fanboys.

About the bolded part, just from my observations of the 52 alone, it seems that Superman was kryptonited/red suned by Batman alone more times than by all villains he faced put together.

I'm willing to bet that also happened in the 10/15 last years pre52. That's what this 'friendship' has resumed itself into.

It's also emblematic of what the characters became that All Star Superman was an inspiring story full of hope, where he worries mostly about his own story, but even then pays his respect to Batman. While All Star Batman was a perfect snapshot of the effect DKR had on comics and cartoons(Bruce Timmverse) up to that time, wasting pages upon pages with disdain for other superheroes. What the heck. Write about Batman, stop being so jealous of other heroes.

'Superman' the character, the franchise, is quiet and happy in his corner of the world. He's respectful of other heroes. 'Batman' I'd say , I'd illustrate, is a jealous little boy full of resentment who has to prove his superiority at least once a year. 30 years of having the ball, the court and the referee is not enough. Yet if we Supes' fans point out their immaturity somehow it's us who are 'bitching and moaning'. Mind boggling.

BTW, as long as Superman has kryptonite and red sun weakness this wont stop. Look what Miller did with Green Lantern's yellow weakness in ASBAR. Look what Scott Snyder did not only with Supes but the whole JL recently. They just can't help themselves.

I'm glad Superman is doing well in his corner of the DCU; I would expect nothing else. I don't mind that Superman has weaknesses either. I think it's hilarious when some Thor or Silver Surfer or Hulk fan says Superman is "boring" b/c he's "so overpowered," & yet the hero they're jocking has no truly exploitable weaknesses! At least, not like Superman does. It just gives Superman a chance to be even more heroic by overcoming his difficulties, that's the way I always look at it. In any case, given what we know about Superman's future (Morrison), we know that his weaknesses will eventually evaporate like dew in the summer sun. Also, given what we know about the possibilities inherent in Kryptonian physiology (Doomsday), it's completely plausible that Superman could develop a similar adaptive immunity thing, if some writer chose to explore that. I can just hear the batgod fanboys gnashing their teeth, lol. In any case, I don't really worry too much b/c, as you say, he's happy w/his part of the DCU.

I like both Superman & Batman, as it happens, & I hate that DC has somehow made them rivals instead of friends & allies (at least more often than not). I think I'm getting too old, lol. Nice post, thanks for putting it together.