Was The Dark Knight Returns one of the worst or one of the best things to happen to Superman?

[Auguste Dupin]

I don't think TDKR hurts Superman's character. I'm a big Superman fan myself. I will admit I was a little irked the first time I read the comic with Batman's asspull victory over Superman. However upon reading more in to the themes of the comic, and reading interviews from Frank Miller (that were posted on this site before the overhaul in threads that are now gone); I find Superman's portrayal in TDKR to be fairly measured.

Lets not forget TDKR is not the first time Superman has involved himself in the affairs of the US Govt against another nation.

Against the Nazis and Japanese during WWII







Superman fighting for the US Govt against the Communists during the Cold War isn't a big afront to the character if we reconcile other time Superman has fought for the US.
Recall also that Superman said he was able to save lives. While we didn't see Superman save any Russian soldiers, I doubt he let them die or physically killed them himself. The Russians would've launched in to full scale war with the US if they were suffering such extreme casualties. Superman was keeping the escalation of the Cold War to a net zero in TDKR. The Russians jumped the shark with the cold bringer missile to try to break the stalemate. Superman diverted the missile and saved millions by his action. He's as much of a hero in TDKR as Batman.

That would be forgetting that every superhero did things like that at the time, including Batman. That's also forgetting that WWII is a very specific instance as far as war goes, and that Superman also did the exact opposite of being a governemental stooge.

[UltraWoman]

That would be forgetting that every superhero did things like that at the time, including Batman. That's also forgetting that WWII is a very specific instance as far as war goes, and that Superman also did the exact opposite of being a governmental stooge.

*nodnod* Pretty much my thought as well.

[Doctor Know]

That would be forgetting that every superhero did things like that at the time, including Batman. That's also forgetting that WWII is a very specific instance as far as war goes, and that Superman also did the exact opposite of being a governemental stooge.

In the fictional world of comics; How is Superman depicted fighting the Nazi's and the racist caricatures of the Japanese any different from Superman fighting against the Russians in a fictional proxy conflict at Corto Maltese?

Is it because WWII was a real event and it represented a triumph for the Allied powers? Contrary wise; is it because the Cold War never moved in to the realm of live warfare between Russia and the US? So our feelings about the Cold War and Superman's depictions in it color our perceptions of the comic. If the Cold War did become live back in the 80's; would people(irl) be championing Superman as a hero for his efforts now in 2014?

I think a lot of the sour feelings about Superman's actions in TDKR stem from a retrospective view of the conflict at the times. We can say now, that the Cold War was stupid and US and Russian paranoia was ill founded.

[Auguste Dupin]

In the fictional world of comics; How is Superman depicted fighting the Nazi's and the racist caricatures of the Japanese any different from Superman fighting against the Russians in a fictional proxy conflict at Corto Maltese?

Is it because WWII was a real event and it represented a triumph for the Allied powers? Contrary wise; is it because the Cold War never moved in to the realm of live warfare between Russia and the US? So our feelings about the Cold War and Superman's depictions in it color our perceptions of the comic. If the Cold War did become live back in the 80's; would people(irl) be championing Superman as a hero for his efforts now in 2014?

I think a lot of the sour feelings about Superman's actions in TDKR stem from a retrospective view of the conflict at the times. We can say now, that the Cold War was stupid and US and Russian paranoia was ill founded.

Because in one case, the point of the story was that Superman sure showed those evil Japs who was the boss, and in the second, the point is that Superman is a spineless follower "always saying yes to everything with a flag", to paraphrase the main character of the story.
Seriously, you guys are acting as if the intention of the story wasn't completely clear.

[Francisco]

It was pretty damn bad. And not because Superman got beat up some by Batman. That's rather incidental and overly complained about. It was his role as government stooge that really hurt the character.

Back in those days even my granma could beat Superman is she had krytponite. You're right when you say that what really hurt Superman was his portrayal as an spineless yes man of the government. From that point on Superman became spineless-man every time he shared the spotlight with Batman

[Qwathings]

I've thought about making a parody comic that depicts the 1930's version of Superman being involved in the events of TDKR, instead of Miller's caricature of Superman. He would have abducted world leaders and forced them to bring an end to the conflict, snapped nuclear missiles in half, thrown the Joker off of a skyscraper in that no nonsense kind of way that this early version of Superman sometimes dealt with badguys, and then he would have punched out Ronald Reagan for trying to boss him around. I would throw in Batman freaking out as he watches Superman tear his way through all of the world's problems with a show of senseless force and a smile. I think there is some comedic potential there.

[Doctor Know]

Because in one case, the point of the story was that Superman sure showed those evil Japs who was the boss, and in the second, the point is that Superman is a spineless follower "always saying yes to everything with a flag", to paraphrase the main character of the story.
Seriously, you guys are acting as if the intention of the story wasn't completely clear.

1. "Japs" is a racial slur. With regards to the US's history with the wrongful internment of Japanese and subsequent racist caricatures of Japanese at the time. Including the "Superman says you can slap a Jap" comic. It would be prudent to avoid using such terms. Just type out Japanese next time.

2. John Ostrander, Dan Jurgens, Jim Starlin and John Byrne depicted Superman interacting with Ronald Reagan.

"Legends" 1986: penciled by Byrne (who was also the head writer for Superman at the time) and written by Ostrander
This panel is after Reagan signs an edict banning costume heroes in the US. While Superman disagrees with it he states he will follow it.


"Superman Annual 1" 1987: penciled Jurgens and written by Jim Stralin. Byrne was still head writer for Superman at the time.

Ronald Reagan enlists Superman's help with discovering what happened to an entire American town, whose inhabitants have vanished. Superman once again complies with Reagan's request.


Frank Miller worked along side John Byrne during the 1986 reboot of the DCU and on Superman. So the depiction of Superman having the Presidents ear is something that carried over among different writers and EIC.

I wouldn't call TDKR Superman a stooge, he could say no at anytime. However in the dystopian world that TDKR story happens in; I feel Superman is doing his best to make a difference in a world on the edge of nuclear warfare. Miller never gave us an explanation for why the JLA was disbanded or why costumed heroes had to go in to retirement. I suspect Miller and his editors were trying to make "Watchmen" with the traditional DC character but figured they didn't need to explain the particulars. Only that Batman/Rorschach was the last hero/vigilante trying to make a difference and Superman/Dr. Manhattan was the only hero sanctioned by the government to continue doing what he was doing.

More WWII Superman cartoons

It's possible Miller was inspired by these and other media of Superman fighting enemy nations. I wonder, is it the fact that Superman is fighting America's battles for it, or it because someone is telling Superman to get involved that irks people?

[SSJ4JW]

Didn't Miller continued with Batman over Superman in ASBAR? I remember something about him blackmailing Superman over.

[dupersuper]

"Superman Annual 1" 1987: penciled again by Byrne who is still head writer for Superman and written by Jim Stralin
Ronald Reagan enlists Superman's help with discovering what happened to an entire American town, whose inhabitants have vanished. Superman once again complies with Reagan's request.

That was pencilled by Jurgens, not Byrne.

[DochaDocha]

I've thought about making a parody comic that depicts the 1930's version of Superman being involved in the events of TDKR, instead of Miller's caricature of Superman. He would have abducted world leaders and forced them to bring an end to the conflict, snapped nuclear missiles in half, thrown the Joker off of a skyscraper in that no nonsense kind of way that this early version of Superman sometimes dealt with badguys, and then he would have punched out Ronald Reagan for trying to boss him around. I would throw in Batman freaking out as he watches Superman tear his way through all of the world's problems with a show of senseless force and a smile. I think there is some comedic potential there.

Do it! Do it!

[Doctor Know]

Didn't Miller continued with Batman over Superman in ASBAR? I remember something about him blackmailing Superman over.

Ugh TDKSA and ASBAR are Miller when he's off his rocker. He treats Superman like an idiot in those comics because he feels Superman should be a tyrant and takeover instead of Earth. They are not good references. What's even more bizarre is that Miller claims that the JLA does eventually form in his universe (Batman Year One, ASBAR, TDKR, TDKSA), with Batman on the team. However he also says that he doesn't see Superman and Batman ever being friends. This is post 9/11 Frank btw. He was in NYC during the attack and it's colored his perceptions of the world since.

That was pencilled by Jurgens, not Byrne.

Your right. My apologies. I have John Byrne's Man Of Steel Volumes, which included the annual in volume 5. So I lump Byrne as the penciler for everything of that era.

[dancj]

1. "Japs" is a racial slur. With regards to the US's history with the wrongful internment of Japanese and subsequent racist caricatures of Japanese at the time. Including the "Superman says you can slap a Jap" comic. It would be prudent to avoid using such terms. Just type out Japanese next time.

Nonsense. Auguste's intent was clear in his (her?) post. I'm pretty sure he doesn't think the Japanese are evil either.

[Auguste Dupin]

Nonsense. Auguste's intent was clear in his (her?) post. I'm pretty sure he doesn't think the Japanese are evil either.

Actually,"his" is right on the money.
But yeah, I think the context of my post makes it clear that it was not a racial slur on my part. I'm actually a pretty big fan of Japanese culture.

[Robotman]

The world that Miller created was a parody of life in the early to mid 1980s. The Cold War was still in full swing and people were watching the proverbial doomsday clock ala Watchmen. Violent crime rates rose sharply in the 70s and 80s and crack was now rampant in poorer neighborhoods. Which I'm sure was a correlation. Vietnam and Watergate were still fresh in people's minds.
Obviously Miller was painting an extreme version of reality with this distopian backdrop.
Then there was Superman still trying to fight his never ending battle against evil. He was trying to look at the world with a black and white classic good guys vs bad guys viewpoint. But this world was one of mostly grays. Batman was able to adapt and Superman wasn't.
But luckily not every writer views the world as cynically as Miller. Since then many creators have delved into why Superman is important. Kingdom Come, All Star, What's So Wrong About Truth Justice and The American Way, etc.


Did Miller try to give Superman and "out" for being a govt lackey in The Dark Knight Strikes Again? I recall Lex and Brainiac were holding Kandor hostage. Was he implying that they were the villains pulling the world's strings the whole time?

[Doctor Know]

Nonsense. Auguste's intent was clear in his (her?) post. I'm pretty sure he doesn't think the Japanese are evil either.

Actually,"his" is right on the money.
But yeah, I think the context of my post makes it clear that it was not a racial slur on my part. I'm actually a pretty big fan of Japanese culture.

Regardless of intent, Japs is considered a racial epithet. Just like kike, wetback, coon and a few others I'm sure you are aware of. It can be avoided just by spelling out the word "Japanese" when you are referencing people from Japan.

Did Miller try to give Superman and "out" for being a govt lackey in The Dark Knight Strikes Again? I recall Lex and Brainiac were holding Kandor hostage. Was he implying that they were the villains pulling the world's strings the whole time?

He did, yes. The US govt was holding Kandor hostage with Brainiac, so Superman was compelled to obey. TDKSA is stupid and is a comic that truly makes Superman look like a fool. Scratch that, no one looks good in TDKSA. Best to ignore it.