Was The Dark Knight Returns one of the worst or one of the best things to happen to Superman?

[victorsage]

It's a stand alone story in a self contained universe. Do people honestly believe it has had a significant affect on how Clark's character has been used? Stand alone tales are just that, stories that have their own universe to deal with. Those characterizations rarely have far reaching affect on a character. Superman & Batman Generations was a great stand alone story, so was Superman:War of the Worlds, as well as New Frontier, among many others over the years, but we rarely see people crying about how characters were presented in them.

If anything I find it a bit hilarious that people act like the Dark Knight Returns really had that much affect on Superman at all in the long run. Still I'll give the story this, few stand alone universe cause such annoyance in some fans. Especially a story that really has no affect on the character, and is only brought up today because of Batman.

If stories and "art" are indeed "art", because it causes feelings and discussions in people, then there is no doubt Miller is a much better "artist" then people give him credit for. It's been almost 30 years and people are still bringing this story up from time to time, usually with a sense of fear and dread that it will affect how a character looks..... 30 years after the fact when said characterizations have largely not been adopted. It's really something amazing to see.

[R0NIN]

It's a stand alone story in a self contained universe. Do people honestly believe it has had a significant affect on how Clark's character has been used? Stand alone tales are just that, stories that have their own universe to deal with. Those characterizations rarely have far reaching affect on a character. Superman & Batman Generations was a great stand alone story, so was Superman:War of the Worlds, as well as New Frontier, among many others over the years, but we rarely see people crying about how characters were presented in them.

If anything I find it a bit hilarious that people act like the Dark Knight Returns really had that much affect on Superman at all in the long run. Still I'll give the story this, few stand alone universe cause such annoyance in some fans. Especially a story that really has no affect on the character, and is only brought up today because of Batman.

If stories and "art" are indeed "art", because it causes feelings and discussions in people, then there is no doubt Miller is a much better "artist" then people give him credit for. It's been almost 30 years and people are still bringing this story up from time to time, usually with a sense of fear and dread that it will affect how a character looks..... 30 years after the fact when said characterizations have largely not been adopted. It's really something amazing to see.

I think you're deluded to think this "stand alone" hasn't had an effect on Superman. DKR was one of the worst thing to happen to Superman ever. Mainly because people who never read a Superman comic, but who have started reading comics and are inevitable steered to read DKR, think that's who Superman really is. ANd from that they never even give him a chance. But this book is almost the primary reason why people erroneously view Superman the way they do.

[daBronzeBomma]

It's a stand alone story in a self contained universe. Do people honestly believe it has had a significant affect on how Clark's character has been used?

Do you honestly believe it hasn't??? If so, that IS hilarious.

It became the template for so many stories involving Superman and Batman since: Superman goes rogue, Batman beats him up with Kryptonite:


Armageddon 2001, 1991



Hush, 2004



Batman/Superman, 2014




Like that? Superman fans have had to watch their guy get stomped by the same Kryptonite-armed BatGod for over a quarter century now.

The DARK KNIGHT RETURNS has had a definite negative effect on Superman since 1986, and anyone who says otherwise hasn't been paying attention or is simply trolling (like I suspect this whole thread's purpose is).

[victorsage]

You two are crying in the rain.

What characterization of Superman comes from that story, that still has a major impact on the character? For those of you that didn't graduate past the 6th grade here is the definition we are talking about when it comes to characterization.

char·ac·ter·i·za·tion [kar-ik-ter-uh-zey-shuhn, -truh-zey-] noun 3. the creation and convincing representation of fictitious characters.

In other words the personality traits of the character, or stated another way what makes Superman, Superman.

So what aspect of Superman's characterization in The Dark Knight Return continues to be an everlasting part of his character since? Their isn't any. He isn't a slave to the state.... in fact DC has tried making waves by making him "renounce his citizenship" of the US in the past. Granted that was more of a marketing ploy but never the less still a statement of fact.

Further your storyline example, "Superman going rogue and Batman stopping him." Isn't even universally true. They created an entire universe where Superman goes rogue, takes over the world, and does what he wants. Hell they made a whole game out of it. In fact in that storyline ultimately the evil Superman is stopped by... well a good Superman.

And again a storyline is not a "characterization". Do you blame Miller for Martian Manhunter going rogue in JLA 88?



Because hero x going crazy is a pretty normal storyline, and has happened over multiple genres, and was not invented by Miller. The idea of "heroes fighting each other" also wasn't invented by Miller either. Furthermore even in Dark Knight Bruce only "wins" by faking a heart attack.

All you've shown me is that the Batman fans have a bigger market share in DC, and Warner Brothers correctly plays to that crowd because it is the larger market for them. In other words you two seem to have penis envy of the Batman fans because DC knows Batman is their highest marketing character, and play to that market. If that is your problem, your problem isn't with how Superman is being represented in The Dark Knight Returns, but instead how popular Bruce is compared to Clark.

If all you are is a consumer, (which I assume you are sense neither of you seemed to grasp the simple idea of "characterization") your only chance of changing the status quote is by growing the Superman fan base. You aren't going to do that by crying that Superman isn't DC's highest draw anymore.

Batman being more popular then Superman at the moment has nothing to do with how Clark's personality and characterization are presented after 1986. Because as I've stated those aspects of his characterization in that story only make sense in that setting, and has not been translated into the over all character. The Dark Knight Return did not have a long term change to how Clark is represented in the mainstream.

You want DC to start having Superman win these "fights" try growing Superman's share in DC Comic's profits. That is the only way it's going to change.

[R0NIN]

You two are crying in the rain.

What characterization of Superman comes from that story, that still has a major impact on the character? For those of you that didn't graduate past the 6th grade here is the definition we are talking about when it comes to characterization.

char·ac·ter·i·za·tion [kar-ik-ter-uh-zey-shuhn, -truh-zey-] noun 3. the creation and convincing representation of fictitious characters.

In other words the personality traits of the character, or stated another way what makes Superman, Superman.

So what aspect of Superman's characterization in The Dark Knight Return continues to be an everlasting part of his character since? Their isn't any. He isn't a slave to the state.... in fact DC has tried making waves by making him "renounce his citizenship" of the US in the past. Granted that was more of a marketing ploy but never the less still a statement of fact.

Further your storyline example, "Superman going rogue and Batman stopping him." Isn't even universally true. They created an entire universe where Superman goes rogue, takes over the world, and does what he wants. Hell they made a whole game out of it. In fact in that storyline ultimately the evil Superman is stopped by... well a good Superman.

And again a storyline is not a "characterization". Do you blame Miller for Martian Manhunter going rogue in JLA 88?



Because hero x going crazy is a pretty normal storyline, and has happened over multiple genres, and was not invented by Miller. The idea of "heroes fighting each other" also wasn't invented by Miller either. Furthermore even in Dark Knight Bruce only "wins" by faking a heart attack.

All you've shown me is that the Batman fans have a bigger market share in DC, and Warner Brothers correctly plays to that crowd because it is the larger market for them. In other words you two seem to have penis envy of the Batman fans because DC knows Batman is their highest marketing character, and play to that market. If that is your problem, your problem isn't with how Superman is being represented in The Dark Knight Returns, but instead how popular Bruce is compared to Clark.

If all you are is a consumer, (which I assume you are sense neither of you seemed to grasp the simple idea of "characterization") your only chance of changing the status quote is by growing the Superman fan base. You aren't going to do that by crying that Superman isn't DC's highest draw anymore.

Batman being more popular then Superman at the moment has nothing to do with how Clark's personality and characterization are presented after 1986. Because as I've stated those aspects of his characterization in that story only make sense in that setting, and has not been translated into the over all character. The Dark Knight Return did not have a long term change to how Clark is represented in the mainstream.

You want DC to start having Superman win these "fights" try growing Superman's share in DC Comic's profits. That is the only way it's going to change.

No one is arguing that Superman suddenly became like his DKR counterpart. I would saw your argument is paper thing, but it's actually non existent.

This is by far one of the worst, least thought out posts I've ever read on these forums, and you're damaged the minds of everyone who has read them. May god have mercy on your soul.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

You two are crying in the rain.

What characterization of Superman comes from that story, that still has a major impact on the character? For those of you that didn't graduate past the 6th grade here is the definition we are talking about when it comes to characterization.

WOW. How about every single "Superman is a crying wimp/automatically yields authority to Batman" moment since then, just for starters? That's not even GETTING into how that story affected the perception of the character within the comics community, and therefore how he'd be portrayed by creators whose main impression of him was DKR, and therefore alters so many team-ups he has thereafter that bury him at the expense of the 'cool' guest-star. Every time he's a dick, or ineffectual, or outright evil, or all of the above? All stemming from this.

The fact that it was an Elseworlds does not even REMOTELY bar creators from drawing inspiration from it, or fans from taking it as a 'definitive' interpretation.

You want DC to start having Superman win these "fights" try growing Superman's share in DC Comic's profits. That is the only way it's going to change.

Still wouldn't happen, because there's more storytelling possibility and excitement in Batman fighting Superman and winning than Superman flicking his finger and Batman getting liquefied.

[Qwathings]

Superman & Batman Generations was a great stand alone story, so was Superman:War of the Worlds, as well as New Frontier, among many others over the years, but we rarely see people crying about how characters were presented in them.

Why would people complain about good characterizations?

And who's crying? All I see around here is text, with no indication of anyone breaking down. Just conversation, no tears.

[Kurosawa]

Regardless of intent, Japs is considered a racial epithet. Just like kike, wetback, coon and a few others I'm sure you are aware of. It can be avoided just by spelling out the word "Japanese" when you are referencing people from Japan.



He did, yes. The US govt was holding Kandor hostage with Brainiac, so Superman was compelled to obey. TDKSA is stupid and is a comic that truly makes Superman look like a fool. Scratch that, no one looks good in TDKSA. Best to ignore it.

The biggest lesson of DKSA is that there is one character Miller hates more than Superman: Dick Grayson.

[Guy1]

Do you honestly believe it hasn't??? If so, that IS hilarious.
It became the template for so many stories involving Superman and Batman since: Superman goes rogue, Batman beats him up with Kryptonite:

New 52 Baby!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_mXWjaxTxU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE70TWyC6MM

Also, Smallville Season 11 had Superman pretty much punking Batman all over the place.
http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/3988390.html

[Guy1]

The biggest lesson of DKSA is that there is one character Miller hates more than Superman: Dick Grayson.

Better or worse than Dick dying by tripping on a rock in Injustice?

[JackDaw]

I actually think VictorS, on this occasion, has performed the most pointless of all tricks: taken a basically sound point but managed to put it so aggressively that everybody is tempted to reject it completely.

Put it this way: isn't it unlikely that one what if story, however successful, really led by itself to year after year of Superman being shown substantially differently?

I certainly agree with him that it is unlikely, and think its worthwhile to consider other explanations behind reasons for portrayal in Superman in years since.

Personally I just think its just down to an accident of timing. Frank M wrote the story around about the time DC wanted to make Superman less powerful and less intelligent. Those changes were coming anyway, and would have happened whether DKR had been written or not. Put it this way…if DC weren't comfortable with Superman being shown the way he was, they had no need to publish it as it was.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

The biggest lesson of DKSA is that there is one character Miller hates more than Superman: Dick Grayson.

The Dick Grayson stuff is the closest I've come to thinking Miller's doing parody, because Batman's so INSANELY over the top in being an asshole to Dick.

Personally I just think its just down to an accident of timing. Frank M wrote the story around about the time DC wanted to make Superman less powerful and less intelligent. Those changes were coming anyway, and would have happened whether DKR had been written or not. Put it this way…if DC weren't comfortable with Superman being shown the way he was, they had no need to publish it as it was.

That's reasonable, it probably wasn't the cause of many immediate changes. But I'd still say it had some long-term effects, especially in the eyes of fans (DKR has tremendously more staying power and legacy than anything at the time like Byrne's Man of Steel, especially as a perennial "intro to the medium/superhero genre" book).

[R0NIN]

The biggest lesson of DKSA is that there is one character Miller hates more than Superman: Dick Grayson.

Yep, and All Star Batman pretty much confirms that while simultaneously showing us how awesome Dick could have been. It's weird reading All Star. For example seeing Dick Grayson completely own Hal Jordan, and Batman admitting that Grayson is basically better at him at pretty much everything was awesome. But yes it's clear there is a dislike for Dick Grayson. On top of a dislike for Superman. Two of my favorite characters.

[UltraWoman]

I actually think VictorS, on this occasion, has performed the most pointless of all tricks: taken a basically sound point but managed to put it so aggressively that everybody is tempted to reject it completely.

Put it this way: isn't it unlikely that one what if story, however successful, really led by itself to year after year of Superman being shown substantially differently?

I certainly agree with him that it is unlikely, and think its worthwhile to consider other explanations behind reasons for portrayal in Superman in years since.

Personally I just think its just down to an accident of timing. Frank M wrote the story around about the time DC wanted to make Superman less powerful and less intelligent. Those changes were coming anyway, and would have happened whether DKR had been written or not. Put it this way…if DC weren't comfortable with Superman being shown the way he was, they had no need to publish it as it was.

So basically TDKR is just a symptom of the change in the perception of Superman, not the virus that has affected his characterization over the years (even to post-52.) I might be able to buy that. Maybe.

[Kuwagaton]

I actually think VictorS, on this occasion, has performed the most pointless of all tricks: taken a basically sound point but managed to put it so aggressively that everybody is tempted to reject it completely.

Put it this way: isn't it unlikely that one what if story, however successful, really led by itself to year after year of Superman being shown substantially differently?

I certainly agree with him that it is unlikely, and think its worthwhile to consider other explanations behind reasons for portrayal in Superman in years since.

Personally I just think its just down to an accident of timing. Frank M wrote the story around about the time DC wanted to make Superman less powerful and less intelligent. Those changes were coming anyway, and would have happened whether DKR had been written or not. Put it this way…if DC weren't comfortable with Superman being shown the way he was, they had no need to publish it as it was.

Definitely agreed.

I feel like DKR ruins Superman only if you really want it to. He's been written worse in more Superman oriented stories by genuine writers. I think if you point at its influence you're missing the fact that it was something like 49% for comics and 49% Batman, with the rest influencing various other things like Superman specifically. Fighting Superman with gear designed to fight Superman isn't really a mind blowing idea created in 1986.