Was The Dark Knight Returns one of the worst or one of the best things to happen to Superman?

[Tra-EL]

I've avoided TDKR for a long time. Never read it. I know what happens and have had discussions about it judging by the characterization in how Superman in interpreted, but never read the story in all its script and context. I finally bought the TPB just yesterday and will finally be reading it cover to cover soon.

Though, the only reason I can think of other than Miller hating Supes is how people viewed the several decades of Superman clearly #1 on top and how untouchable he was goes in translation and is in parallel of how people are getting sick of BatGod nowadays. Superman was always the macho type, the cool and handsome hero with bright colors and calming smile..always there to protect while Batman was always the nerd with the butt-boy sidekick. TDKR was a ploy to change direction, humble Supes and make Batman a more serious contender within' the ranks. Superman was used and was the sole creation of BatGod...so you're welcome, Bat-fans.

Without the need to use Supe's as a Government pawn, the badass known as Batman wouldn't of packed the heavy punch he needed to jump the shark and climb over that hump. In many ways, though Supe's and his fans have to swallow their pride while reading this book, we still can smirk that it took our hero's sacrifices to really kick off Batman's highlighted popularity. Bats couldn't do it without Supes IMO.

[Jphu8414]

I'm sure there have been some worse things that have happened to Superman but as some people have already stated, i just really dislike how this book really fueled the Superman is a total boring boy scout and complete and utter tool of the government misconception that some people seem to have it really irritates me. I don't know why but as a Superman fan, reading this book always seems to leave a bad feeling in me and I just can't get over how badly Superman is portrayed to really ignore and enjoy the story for what it is.
Really though, after reading this book, I always get ticked off and I have to reach for a good Superman comic to wash down the bad taste of TDKR, All Star Superman always seemed to do a good job...

[Mantis Girl 94]

Rather or not all comics became "more dark" after TDKR is the point. They didn't even need to use SM in the graphic novel to make that point. SM would still be the SM he is today.

As far as TDKR being "one of the best things" for SM.......are you freaking kidding me?? This is a joke right?

The TDKR is only good for BM and no other...period!

[Kurosawa]

Yep, and All Star Batman pretty much confirms that while simultaneously showing us how awesome Dick could have been. It's weird reading All Star. For example seeing Dick Grayson completely own Hal Jordan, and Batman admitting that Grayson is basically better at him at pretty much everything was awesome. But yes it's clear there is a dislike for Dick Grayson. On top of a dislike for Superman. Two of my favorite characters.

I felt the scene with Hal Jordan in All-Star Batman and Robin was disgusting and disrespectful to Hal as a character and to John Broome and Gil Kane as his creators.

Mostly, Miller hates superheroes, period.

[HowitzerJoe]

When I recently read the fight scene between Batman and Superman in DKR, it seemed very much like Batman was a petty child throwing a tantrum and Superman was an adult that was worried about the child hurting himself. Superman offered very little resistance, and obviously wasn't looking for a fight. During almost every moment of that battle Superman was worried about Batman getting hurt or his heart giving out. Even after the kryptonite gas and getting beaten up, Superman was still more concerned about Batman's wellbeing.

All the while Batman was focused on making this powerful being pay for being powerful and using that power in ways that Batman wouldn't use it. He wanted to remind Superman that a regular person (with millions of dollars to throw around, unlimited access to advanced laboratories, and genius level knowledge of chemistry) could harm him. It kind of felt like Batman just wanted to show that he was the bigger man because he was jealous or insecure.

In the end, Superman discovers Bruce had faked his death and goes along with the ruse, because he didn't feel hurt about the fight and wanted what was best for his old friend.

It seems to me that if Batman had simply explained that his plan was to fake his death and then go into hiding, Superman would have offered to help him with that plan. Instead, Batman goes through with the pointless fight that gains him nothing but more broken bones and the sense that he can beat up a Superman that will stand there and take that beating because he doesn't want to hurt his friend.

This is the notion I got the first time I read TDKR. Although it was only one time a few years ago. I need to go back and read it again. I watched the newly released film, but that didn't resonate with me as much. I do think that this story has been a little overrated in recent years. It's a good Batman story as I recall, but I don't think it's the best Batman story ever.

[HowitzerJoe]

I'm sure there have been some worse things that have happened to Superman but as some people have already stated, i just really dislike how this book really fueled the Superman is a total boring boy scout and complete and utter tool of the government misconception that some people seem to have it really irritates me. I don't know why but as a Superman fan, reading this book always seems to leave a bad feeling in me and I just can't get over how badly Superman is portrayed to really ignore and enjoy the story for what it is.
Really though, after reading this book, I always get ticked off and I have to reach for a good Superman comic to wash down the bad taste of TDKR, All Star Superman always seemed to do a good job...

True. I like both characters, although Superman a little more. It does get annoyed with a lot of people that have used this book to label Superman as a boring character because he does all the right things, or isn't relatable. Folks that complain about Superman in that simple kind of light, 9 times out of 10 they've probably never read more than one Superman story. Meanwhile Batman is cool because he's dark/brooding and "relatable" in a lot of people's eyes.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

I felt the scene with Hal Jordan in All-Star Batman and Robin was disgusting and disrespectful to Hal as a character and to John Broome and Gil Kane as his creators.

I don't even know about that scene, man. If something like it were in DKR, than yeah, it would be pretty insanely harsh. And it still is Miller taking a potshot at GL as a concept on the level of what Garth Ennis did with Kyle Rayner in Hitman. But by the time Batman and Robin have painted an entire room yellow and start drinking lemonade just to piss Hal off, it's essentially impossible to take it as anything other than a Mad-style gag. Even if it mocks a superhero, it's the scene closest to a traditional superhero comic in its form and bombastic nature, just through a FM filter where everyone's SUPER-SERIOUS about it...which is where most of the comedy from that scene comes from anyway. "Damn you and your lemonade!"

At the end of the day, he didn't like the character, he wrote the scene in line with that. I don't think that's particularly offensive: it's not like his complaints were ignoring the core tenants of the character, or showed him as egregiously monstrous. I could see how it would be irritating (I like Hal myself on the rare occasions he's written well, but I thought his time in ASBAR was amusing), but not especially offensive.

[Qwathings]

I felt the scene with Hal Jordan in All-Star Batman and Robin was disgusting and disrespectful to Hal as a character and to John Broome and Gil Kane as his creators.

Mostly, Miller hates superheroes, period.

I didn't like that scene. It's a misuse of a character's weakness. The weakness to yellow wasn't intended to end the character's usefulness, but instead provide them with a problem to solve or challenge to overcome. It's like kryptonite, magic, or red sunlight for Superman.

Whether it's the writer wanting to make fun of the character, limit that character for the sake of the story, or take that character down a peg in order to promote other characters, it can be annoying because it dismisses what has been established about the character in their own adventures.

Hal has fought enemies that use yellow energy, turn objects and people into gold, and he was once transported to a world of yellow, and he prevailed. Putting him in a room that has been painted yellow and confronting him with people painted yellow isn't anything new. He's faced worse odds and won. But for the sake of that scene his intelligence is reduced so that he becomes helpless.

We see this kind of thing happen to Superman all the time. Rather than magic being depicted as a vulnerability, it gets used like an off-switch for Superman. It's an easy way out for the writer, rather than trying to come up with something deeper or more creative they just use these vulnerabilities or limits and ignore the character strengths.

Although, the defense of Hal's depiction in All Star Batman is that the story was meant to be a parody. Unfortunately, it was never marketed as a parody. In fact, the idea of it being a parody was only brought up after readers started to tear apart the story, which makes it seem like an afterthought and a means of defending the poor quality of the work by implying that it was meant to be bad in the first place (the "I meant to do that" defense).

[Dispenser Of Truth]

Although, the defense of Hal's depiction in All Star Batman is that the story was meant to be a parody. Unfortunately, it was never marketed as a parody. In fact, the idea of it being a parody was only brought up after readers started to tear apart the story, which makes it seem like an afterthought and a means of defending the poor quality of the work by implying that it was meant to be bad in the first place (the "I meant to do that" defense).

I remember people talking about how the major flaw of the whole thing was that Jim Lee drew it, therefore making it look like a "serious" work.

[Qwathings]

I remember people talking about how the major flaw of the whole thing was that Jim Lee drew it, therefore making it look like a "serious" work.

We were sold a Batman comic written by Frank Miller (of "Batman: The Dark Knight Returns" and "Batman: Year One") and drawn by Jim Lee (of "Batman: Hush"). There was no indication of All Star being a parody or a comedy in any way.

[Auguste Dupin]

I remember people talking about how the major flaw of the whole thing was that Jim Lee drew it, therefore making it look like a "serious" work.

Frankly, even as a parody, it really isn't all that funny.

[Kid A]

Frankly, even as a parody, it really isn't all that funny.

Yeah, I hate when it's assumed that people don't like ASBAR because they take it too seriously. Writing a dumb book on purpose doesn't make it less dumb.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

Frankly, even as a parody, it really isn't all that funny.

Counterargument:





DAMN YOU AND YOUR LEMONADE

Yeah, I hate when it's assumed that people don't like ASBAR because they take it too seriously. Writing a dumb book on purpose doesn't make it less dumb.

No, people don't like it because it's silly and generally awful, and they're not interested in shelling out their money for ironic value. Hardly a hanging crime.


Then again, if you did not achieve instantaneous erection at the sight of the above image, you're probably awful and I hate you. So I guess it's a case-by-case thing.

[Prime]

Definitely worse. It's what cause Superman downfall.

[Jphu8414]

So does anyone here think that the real Frank Miller was abducted by aliens in the early 2000's and was replaced by some hack? I've read some of his recent work and it's really like it's not even the same person writing from the person pre-2000's