What "Ms. Marvel" Gets Right About Comic Book Violence

[Noah Berlatsky]

Not sure how you can categorize Ms. Marvel as a breath of fresh air without thinking through the ways it's different. If it's fresh in comparison to other things, those other things have to be stale, it seems like.

[lancerman]

Not sure how you can categorize Ms. Marvel as a breath of fresh air without thinking through the ways it's different. If it's fresh in comparison to other things, those other things have to be stale, it seems like.

You didn't argue that it was a breath of fresh air (well you kind of half did). You argued that comics were using ultra violence and gore to be mature and serious. Then you sited a show you only watched 10 minutes of, misread the effect the show runners were going for in the scene as serious and adult, and made then said it was an indictment of comics using violence to convey a message of seriousness. The same way you tried to say Wolverine was trying to be adult by hacking people apart, rather than being a hero whose writers use gore for dramatic effect.

That's the main problem I think most of us have had with the article. The criticism of the alternative to pump up Ms. Marvel. If you wanted to just say "this is different, and I like it" I don't think there would have been much push back.

For the record, just because something is different and is fresh for being different doesn't mean everything else is stale. It just means the other thing is new.

[radcap]

"We've collectively decided that violence is more real than peace"

This is a false (and bizarre) premise.

Do you also believe "we've collectively decided that conflict is more real than cooperation" due to the fact that drama is driven by conflict? To draw such a conclusion is quite facile - and ignores the context in which conflict (and "violence") is presented.

[Mikekerr3]

So, he's comparing a Ms Marvel comic to a tv show, in this case Gotham, which he admits to only watching 10 minutes of?

And he trows in a movie r and a book , full metal jacket which he has never read or seen

[Noah Berlatsky]

I've seen Full Metal Jacket multiple times.

Just because someone has a different interpretation of a film doesn't mean they haven't seen it.

[Jonah Weiland]

I'd love to know those of you who are arguing with Noah's editorial are actually fans of Ms. Marvel. It seems to me, based on what I've read here, that some of those those arguing against his point aren't actually arguing from a stand point that you disagree, more so that you don't seem to like the book so he must be wrong.

Also, it's interesting to see comments like this, "It's really odd to pull up Bruce's parents' murder as the negative here, as that is Batman's origin." That's not what was said. He talked about the choices made in presentation, not the incident itself.

Argue the details, not the minutiae.

[Red]

The idea I got from the article is maybe the author is experiencing "Gritty" burnout, something many people have complained about most notably in movies/television. But instead of comparing Gotham to The Flash (a more light-hearted take that I think most people agree feels fresh despite some campiness and occasional lore re-writing), he compared it to Miss Marvel which has been getting a lot of buzz. Sure, maybe he could have used better examples, but I think the violence is more real than peace argument holds. Of course drama is driven by conflict, but there's more than one kind of conflict.

A better comparison may have been Batman's origins to Bendis and Maleev's Scarlet. Her loved one was also brutally murdered in front of her, and she becomes a vigilante in a world of violence. But instead of flying over rooftops in the night, she becomes a reluctant participant in a rebellion. Sure, her villains might not be the same, but she's essentially still battling evil.

I do think the author found something inherently interesting in Miss Marvel's approach to violence, and felt the essay would be stronger if he compared it to something else currently wildly popular for better or for worse.

[Conch22]

I actually happen to be behind on my back issues of Ms. Marvel (as well as a few other series) but I enjoyed her origin, liked her powerset and costume, felt some of the family members persona's could've been toned down and done with a touch of nuance but its a first issue and you need a strong impression so that's a minor flaw, to me, that can be forgiven as a symptom of pilot-itis.

With the article, there does seem to be a sneer towards the more conventional presentations of violence in the medium, which can get those who are fans of those styles on the defensive. I wouldn't (and I'm mainly going off how thouroughly the writer explained the tone for violence in Ms. Marvel as I'm behind on that series) say that portrayal of violence is particularly new, it is typically reserved for the civilian POV or newer heroes as they do eventually become battle hardened to some extent.

If I could make a comparison for approaches to violence, Sin City (with the hilariously excellent line from Marv of "they should've shot me in the head and enough times to be sure") as opposed to the more grounded take on violence from Nolans DK trilogy wherein having been Batman for maybe 2 years max and retired for 8 Bruce still walks with a limp and has an overall scarred quality to his body, according to his doctor. I personally enjoy both takes.

[Powerboy]

[QUOTE=Noah Berlatsky;823322]

Nope; just rewatching the Adam West Batman. His parents are in fact shot (he refers to it in a brief, parodic, quite mean-spirited aside in the first episode.)

Yes, he refers to it briefly in the first episode and again in Part 2 of the first episode although it's played in a corny manner or maybe West intended it play it seriously but his acting wasn't up to it.

At any rate, the article writer just seems to dislike the rehash of going through the deaths of Bruce's parents in yet another version of the Batman story. But, gosh, it's only the driving force behind everything the character becomes and why he becomes Batman. As a character said in the Tim Burton Batman, when he realized Bruce Wayne saw his parents murdered in front of him, "Can you even imagine what that would do to a kid?"

Maybe he's overreacting and implying comics have gone too far in that direction. But it seems more just a statement of his personal preferences in super hero story telling than any sort of legitimate criticism of that style.

[ouroboros]

The problem with Mr. Bertlatsky's essay is that he begins from the following false premise:

Violence equals maturity -- and so it's no wonder that, as superhero comics have reached for cultural legitimacy, they've become more spectacularly violent.

Have there been individuals who voiced the belief that greater violence equals greater maturity? Well, possibly, though Berlatsky doesn't quote any of them. The reader of this essay is invited to fall in with the author's belief that the advocates of "greater violence in comics" are monolithically seeking for "cultural legitimacy."

Here's a thought: maybe the majority of people who buy violent comics buy them for the same reason patrons of violent films watch violent films: They like something about the violence as such, rather than as some putative means to an end.

If one looks at the eighties as the first time that commercial comics really started a love affair with ultraviolence, then we now have over thirty years of ultraviolent comics.

How many of them receive the cachet of being a cultural touchstone? Miller's original THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, perhaps. But are there critics outside the comics world who venerate LOBO, PUNISHER, VIGILANTE, SIN CITY, et al?

If not, from what source would the supposed "cultural legitimacy" be perceived?

[ouroboros]

And FTR, though I've only read the first MS. MARVEL collection, I think it's one of the best comics of 2014. If other artists imitate its family-friendly approach with their own style and verve, it may have some additional impact beyond its own excellence.

Which doesn't mean that I wouldn't like to see Frank Miller go back to new SIN CITY stories, as gross and violent as ever.

[ouroboros]

I should add that if one is going to make statements comparing the operations of violence in fiction as opposed to those in real life, one should address the fact that neither Batman nor Ms. Marvel have any analogues in the real world.

[George Caltsoudas]

Crash! Boom! Bam! Kapow!