The Pressure to Look "Real"

[Mark]

Money was always the driving force behind selling the comic, but the raw mercenary attitude that in my opinion rules marvel and DC with the events that keep coming and coming and coming go far beyond anything that used to be done.

it's always been about money, even going back to the days of Stan and Jack. Readers have the fantasy that at one point comic books were an art form purely fueled by creative people who delivered unto the people wonderful tidings and harmony. When in reality it was always "how do we sell this to people and in a way that will maximize profits." The for the fans stuff and what not is more them throwing us a bone mixed with pageantry. You have to make the consumer think that they're part of the creative process and in the thoughts of those creating, when that's the furthest thing from the truth. A publisher has to make money and they'll do what needs doing to make money. Which is why I get a slight chuckle out of people who say "they're just doing this for money!" Well duh, of course they are. They're a business first and foremost.

The fan love and everything else is just icing on the cake. It's entertainment, packaged and put into a nice little box with the illusion that they love us and will cater to us. It's Marketing 101 really. Make the consumer think you care and they'll be happy with what you give them. You're not just selling them a product, you're selling them an emotional investment with a product.

Yeah, indie companies aren't as extreme as this, but money still matters. If Love and Rockers didn't make a dime, do you think Phantagraphics would have kept publishing it out of the goodness of their hearts? Of course not. While Los Bros Hernandez, do what they do for artistic purposes, in the end they do what they think is best. Not the fans, not the publisher, but them. Which to me says a lot about being a fan of something and the strange entitlement that has been produced in the last two decades. Just because we buy something, doesn't mean we should get a say in how it's produced. Our only voice is our wallet. Vote with your dollar and if you don't like the product, well, then don't buy the product and move on.

[Kirby Krackle]

Money was always the driving force behind selling the comic, but the raw mercenary attitude that in my opinion rules marvel and DC with the events that keep coming and coming and coming go far beyond anything that used to be done.

We live in the age of event comics. Event comics sell. That's all there is to it really. When they stop making money, they'll move onto something else.

[Mark]

We live in the age of event comics. Event comics sell. That's all there is to it really. When they stop making money, they'll move onto something else.

No matter if the event is good or bad. That's the real difference to me, Stan and the rest always tried to do a good story that would sell, now I believe the writers are working harder on selling stories that may or may not be good. Quality takes a back seat to the money, at least as far as events go. Plot lines are stretched, characters distorted... all in the name of putting out a few more issues.

[Kirby Krackle]

No matter if the event is good or bad. That's the real difference to me, Stan and the rest always tried to do a good story that would sell, now I believe the writers are working harder on selling stories that may or may not be good. Quality takes a back seat to the money, at least as far as events go. Plot lines are stretched, characters distorted... all in the name of putting out a few more issues.

I don't know, I think it was less of doing a "good" story and more of doing an exciting story that moves books and can make easy profit. If you go by what many biographies and books have said on those early days of Stan and Jack it was mostly 2 sentence summaries and then Jack drawing the thing up, followed by Stan putting in dialogue - The Marvel Method.

I think the problem with that thinking that it was all good stories, is that we just remember the good and forget all the bad ones. This goes with any medium really. The same will happen 20 years from now. That's the industry, you just have to roll with it.

[Arfguy]

This risks any credibility I might have on any comic-book forum, but I actually think the costumes in Shumaker's Batman films looked actually pretty good, with the exception of the nipples and some of the stupider colour accents on the suits:
Attachment 15722
I think had they made Cap's costume the same way it would have looked okay, though I think it might need very stylised lighting like they had in the early Batman films. I think the awfulness of Batman and Robin killed the rubber suit molded muscle look by association, but imo the technique itself was fine.

I agree. I thought Keaton's Batman outfit looked much better than the suit he wore in Batman Returns. The muscles looked more molded and shaped than BR one, which looked more squarish and armory. I actually really hate each and every Batman outfit from the Nolan movies.

The suits that Schumacher used weren't that bad, but the nipples were an odd choice.

[ed2962]

it's always been about money, even going back to the days of Stan and Jack. Readers have the fantasy that at one point comic books were an art form purely fueled by creative people who delivered unto the people wonderful tidings and harmony. When in reality it was always "how do we sell this to people and in a way that will maximize profits." The for the fans stuff and what not is more them throwing us a bone mixed with pageantry. You have to make the consumer think that they're part of the creative process and in the thoughts of those creating, when that's the furthest thing from the truth. A publisher has to make money and they'll do what needs doing to make money. Which is why I get a slight chuckle out of people who say "they're just doing this for money!" Well duh, of course they are. They're a business first and foremost.

The fan love and everything else is just icing on the cake. It's entertainment, packaged and put into a nice little box with the illusion that they love us and will cater to us. It's Marketing 101 really. Make the consumer think you care and they'll be happy with what you give them. You're not just selling them a product, you're selling them an emotional investment with a product.

Yeah, indie companies aren't as extreme as this, but money still matters. If Love and Rockers didn't make a dime, do you think Phantagraphics would have kept publishing it out of the goodness of their hearts? Of course not. While Los Bros Hernandez, do what they do for artistic purposes, in the end they do what they think is best. Not the fans, not the publisher, but them. Which to me says a lot about being a fan of something and the strange entitlement that has been produced in the last two decades. Just because we buy something, doesn't mean we should get a say in how it's produced. Our only voice is our wallet. Vote with your dollar and if you don't like the product, well, then don't buy the product and move on.

Sure, they were out to make money, but in the Stan and Jack days they did listen to their fans. It's not secret that they started doing hero vs hero fights because they would get letters asking which character was stronger. Marvel/DC would occasionally make direct appeals to the fans saying things like, "Would you like to see more of Capt McGuffin? Write and let us know!" There was that infamous issue of the FF where the story was the team answering real fan questions...

I think the difference now is that mngt at the big two know that they have a captive (although shrinking) crowd. There's some fans that will buy titles even if they don't like them. So there's a slight jaded attitude of "It doesn't matter, they'll buy it anyway." So sometimes there's comics that are just obvious attempts to take advantage of that.

[Holt]

This risks any credibility I might have on any comic-book forum, but I actually think the costumes in Shumaker's Batman films looked actually pretty good, with the exception of the nipples and some of the stupider colour accents on the suits:
Attachment 15722
I think had they made Cap's costume the same way it would have looked okay, though I think it might need very stylised lighting like they had in the early Batman films. I think the awfulness of Batman and Robin killed the rubber suit molded muscle look by association, but imo the technique itself was fine.

The suits themselves were actually fairly good. If you discount the nipples, the Robin suit from Batman Forever is actually a pretty good update of the outfit for a modern audience.

The problem is of course the nipples and campy tone, which has caused a lot of people to hate the entire designs out of association.