The Pressure to Look "Real"

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

For what the writer wanted it made sense, she was re-inventing Carol almost from the ground up. But as to practicality, this is a link to an article that has a cover of Conan and Red Sonja, two people who constantly fought against foes with swords, knives, spears and claws.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources...ve-comics-209/

Look at all the skin, far more than Carol Danvers who fought foes that threw energy bolts and punches. So practical really doesn't enter into it. I asked my sister why the long boots are considered 'hookerish' now and she pointed to the movie Pretty Woman. That's all it takes, one person so long as they are one of the 'cool' people decides something and the rest follow suit. I wonder sometimes if KSD considered long boots a fashion no before Pretty Woman made them so.

YES!, you are absolutely right! In Carol Danvers case the 'cool' is KSD, 'the rest following suit' are the x comicbook readers who buy Carol Danvers' book and anyone disagreeing with this are the x comicbook readers who are 'uncool'.

[Mike82]

YES!, you are absolutely right! In Carol Danvers case the 'cool' is KSD, 'the rest following suit' are the x comicbook readers who buy Carol Danvers' book and anyone disagreeing with this are the x comicbook readers who are 'uncool'.

So, you are basing this off of what someone's sister said? As if she is an authority on things? Movies, like comic books aren't created in a vacuum. Is it possible rhat Julia Roberts was portrayed in such a way because the look was already considered "hookerish" at the time? The current suit is better than the last, and that is my own opinion, nobody else's.

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

Jennifer DePrey. “I’ve been reading comic books since I was eight,” DePrey says, “and I’ve always kind of avoided superhero comics. If I was looking for a superhero that I felt was like me, her costume was a bikini and thigh-high boots or had a boob window, or she wasn’t ever on a cover by herself—she was always with a bunch of dudes that looked way cooler than she did.”

I am glad for Jennifer DePrey and everyone who feels the same way as her, that Carol Danvers is now 'her kind of superhero' but I disagree with she was always with a bunch of guys that looked way cooler than she did. In those issues of Avengers drawn by John Byrne and George Perez, Ms. Marvel was, to me, way cooler looking than Simon Williams, Steve Rogers, Sam Wilson, Clint Barton, Janet van Dyne and Wanda.

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

It is just a fad. In fifteen year's time we will look back on this era and think how silly "realistic" costumes looked (like the way we look back on the 90's and laugh about pouches, guns and shoulder pads).

Good point. Thanks for mentioning it.

[Holt]

The "sexy scale mail of distraction" is something that turns me off quickly. It's not practical, don't try to pretend that it's practical, it just pokes at the suspension of disbelief. And, not all superhero costumes were/should be designed to be eyecatching and impractical. (Not that I'd call the Captain Marvel outfit practical or bland, really, it's a brightly colored body suit which screams classic, generic superhero, just with some unnecessary buttons b/c military.) I'd argue that "practicality" is an aesthetic of its own in hero costume design— Batman's utility belt is a part of his costume that's supposed to highlight his practical nature. Obviously Iron Man's suit is supposed to look like something that works, and that's actually an instance of movies matching the comics more than the other way around. Pouches were another nod to practicality (don't heroes need pockets?) that got way out of hand. Impracticality is really really not just about how much skin is showing.



But plenty of people were drawn into the book by the redesign. Like, there's an account of just that in this story from Wired :



And this isn't a unique story. Like, I've seen a lot of other similar stories posted around the internet. The huge number of Carol cosplays I see at cons also speaks to the existence of people who are really passionate about this new costume. I wouldn't say I'm one of them, but they're out there and they're buying comics.

People just have different ideas of what a superhero comic should look like, and Marvel isn't just about catering to diverse audiences these days, but also diverse tastes. It always has been, to some degree— Daredevil has felt different than Thor for a long time— but now Marvel is publishing a Rocket Raccoon ongoing. By Skottie Young! Obviously the films have had a huge influence on getting that pitch published, but you can't tell me that book looks "realistic". It's not this 1:1 correlation.

Yeah I've met a number of women who got into Marvel through Carol Danvers and it was encouraging to see.

The fact that they're going with the Captain identity for the movie just says to me someone higher up in the decision making ladder had the good sense to realize it's probably not a good idea to make the company's first female superhero movie starring a woman with a swimsuit and fetish gear.

I also think alternatively if people were so hellbent on bringing back the Ms. name and the bathing suit they really should have made some noise. The Carol Corps made a lot of noise and Feige hinted that's partially what led to them going with that for Phase 3 (he cited Black Panther and Captain Marvel as the two most oft-requested characters shortly before they were announced).

[Reviresco]

I don't think anyone ever complained about Namor wearing just a swimsuit, or Tarzan or Conan wearing the loin cloth. But someone in charge says 'dress them this way' and lemming like everyone follows.

Really? Then why is Namor covered from neck to toe, now?

I can't tell you how many times I've heard men complain about Namor's speedo. It's even in the comics.




Ironically, the most 'real' and practical outfit for a swimmer is swimming trunks.

[Mark]

Yeah I've met a number of women who got into Marvel through Carol Danvers and it was encouraging to see.

The fact that they're going with the Captain identity for the movie just says to me someone higher up in the decision making ladder had the good sense to realize it's probably not a good idea to make the company's first female superhero movie starring a woman with a swimsuit and fetish gear.

I also think alternatively if people were so hellbent on bringing back the Ms. name and the bathing suit they really should have made some noise. The Carol Corps made a lot of noise and Feige hinted that's partially what led to them going with that for Phase 3 (he cited Black Panther and Captain Marvel as the two most oft-requested characters shortly before they were announced).

Made some noise? Please, I made plenty of noise about what marvel was doing during cw and all it really did was pretty much get me kicked off the boards. Making noise, going against the grain, all it really does is put a target on your chest.

[Mark]

So, you are basing this off of what someone's sister said? As if she is an authority on things?

You really don't want to get into a throw down with my sister

[Mark]

The "sexy scale mail of distraction" is something that turns me off quickly. It's not practical, don't try to pretend that it's practical, it just pokes at the suspension of disbelief. And, not all superhero costumes were/should be designed to be eyecatching and impractical. (Not that I'd call the Captain Marvel outfit practical or bland, really, it's a brightly colored body suit which screams classic, generic superhero, just with some unnecessary buttons b/c military.) I'd argue that "practicality" is an aesthetic of its own in hero costume design— Batman's utility belt is a part of his costume that's supposed to highlight his practical nature. Obviously Iron Man's suit is supposed to look like something that works, and that's actually an instance of movies matching the comics more than the other way around. Pouches were another nod to practicality (don't heroes need pockets?) that got way out of hand. Impracticality is really really not just about how much skin is showing.

But the rest of Batman's costume isn't practical at all, especially the cape. The chain mail bikini isn't practical at all, but it looks great. I don't see how Carol's current suit is more or less practical than her black one, her skin is still tough enough not to need armor. It seems to me more to represent a lot of scorn and distaste toward the old style of superheroine suit and more the old fan who enjoyed that style. The attitude I get is 'you're just not good enough for us at marvel anymore, that suit was dumb and you were just too dumb to notice." and I really get that feeling from KSD. But Captain Marvel has editorial support right now, if it didn't it wouldn't have survived past the first few issues (and no matter what suit she was wearing I could barely tell she was human with that art).
I don't really want the black suit back, nor the name really. When marvel wrote Carol as a hypocritical fascist in civil war I gave up on the character and they've never given me a reason to go back to her. KSD has done a quick coat of paint by changing her origin and skipping a few memories, but that didn't do a darn thing for me. So I don't really want her back, but I would like some respect for a costume, a design and a way of writing and drawing that lasted for a few decades and produced stories that I liked. Cause when I was a kid and picked up Ms. Marvel number 1 I wasn't really caring that the costume was impractical, I was looking for a good story with a character I could admire and I found that. Ok, marvel has killed it and is doing it's best to trash the rest of the characters I grew up with, (Dr. Strange: Murderer) but at least they could acknowledge that for a time these were very good stories with very good art.

But plenty of people were drawn into the book by the redesign. Like, there's an account of just that in this story from Wired :



And this isn't a unique story. Like, I've seen a lot of other similar stories posted around the internet. The huge number of Carol cosplays I see at cons also speaks to the existence of people who are really passionate about this new costume. I wouldn't say I'm one of them, but they're out there and they're buying comics.

People just have different ideas of what a superhero comic should look like, and Marvel isn't just about catering to diverse audiences these days, but also diverse tastes. It always has been, to some degree— Daredevil has felt different than Thor for a long time— but now Marvel is publishing a Rocket Raccoon ongoing. By Skottie Young! Obviously the films have had a huge influence on getting that pitch published, but you can't tell me that book looks "realistic". It's not this 1:1 correlation.

And how many were turned off of the character that Wired didn't run a story on?

[electr1cgoblin]

But the rest of Batman's costume isn't practical at all, especially the cape. The chain mail bikini isn't practical at all, but it looks great. I don't see how Carol's current suit is more or less practical than her black one, her skin is still tough enough not to need armor. It seems to me more to represent a lot of scorn and distaste toward the old style of superheroine suit and more the old fan who enjoyed that style. The attitude I get is 'you're just not good enough for us at marvel anymore, that suit was dumb and you were just too dumb to notice."



And how many were turned off of the character that Wired didn't run a story on?

Marvel books always felt different to me, at least back when I could tell the good guys from the bad guys.

That last line is pure gold. *applause*

[Mark]

That last line is pure gold. *applause*

I should have left it in then, but I thought it was over the top.

[Holt]

Made some noise? Please, I made plenty of noise about what marvel was doing during cw and all it really did was pretty much get me kicked off the boards. Making noise, going against the grain, all it really does is put a target on your chest.

Perhaps that's because some people don't know the difference between making noise and starting drama. As I said her fans were able to get her a movie and a relaunched book despite meager sales.

If you're that put off by her no longer wearing thigh highs and a swim suit then I'd suggest trying to write in.

[Mark]

Perhaps that's because some people don't know the difference between making noise and starting drama. As I said her fans were able to get her a movie and a relaunched book despite meager sales.

If you're that put off by her no longer wearing thigh highs and a swim suit then I'd suggest trying to write in.

The difference between making noise and making drama is negligible.

As I explained above I don't like the character anymore. Like most of the rest of them marvel killed my affection and respect for the character when they wrote her as a fascist hypocrite in cw. What I'd like is an acknowledgment from the writers that all that I read and liked previously of her, all the costumes she wore that I thought were good were actually good. I liked Carol's costume, I liked Wanda's costume, I liked all of the silly, impractical costumes from Wonder Woman to Moondragon and now all of what I liked and used to enjoy was wrong. I was wrong in liking them all because they turned some people off. In fact I'm still wrong because I don't like the new costumes all that much. The implicit message from all the new fans who couldn't like Carol because of what she wore is that I was wrong not to like her too. So they can have their new Carol Danvers, mine is dead and gone; but I refuse to believe them that the world suddenly turned sunny and bright because she covered up a bit more of her skin.

[Reviresco]

Made some noise? Please, I made plenty of noise about what marvel was doing during cw and all it really did was pretty much get me kicked off the boards. Making noise, going against the grain, all it really does is put a target on your chest.

I admit, I rarely have seen anyone complain repeatedly as much as you. That said, there's an S at the end of the Carol CorpS, and one of you does not equal thousands of women. And instead of complaining on an internet forum to the point of being kicked off the boards, they did positive things, like write to Marvel, cosplay, show up at cons, create art and fiction, enthusiastically encourage others to buy books and merchandise, and interact positively with creators.

[Mark]

I admit, I rarely have seen anyone complain repeatedly as much as you. That said, there's an S at the end of the Carol CorpS, and one of you does not equal thousands of women. And instead of complaining on an internet forum to the point of being kicked off the boards, they did positive things, like write to Marvel, cosplay, show up at cons, create art and fiction, enthusiastically encourage others to buy books and merchandise, and interact positively with creators.

I wasn't kicked off the board, I was hounded off by people who decided that I only had the right to complain twice and after that.. Well let's just say the attacks were so good, so vicious and so persistent that when I left this board I entertained fleeting thoughts of suicide. They were that thorough.

I don't hold it against the Carol Corps people anymore than I hold a Montreal Canadian's victory against a Bruins team. They won and wish them well. I don't say a negative word in the appreciation thread. But I liked what was, I've got every issue of her original run and I've got them all scanned into my computer and sometimes I use them as a screen saver. This current trend toward realism, this current trend to deny that what was wasn't so bad, that I will complain about.