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  1. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by heretic View Post
    The frothing Islamophobia that leads to attacks on women who do not dress "properly" in the name of freedom to choose how women dress? The logic does ring hollow upon close examination, yes.
    Sorry. You've lost me.

    That woman is saying that walking out NOT covered up has pitted her under constant threat.

    If these threats are from non-Muslim French, then wouldn't those threats and insults still be directed toward her by the same racists when wearing a niqab?

    If these threats are from fellow French Muslims from within her community, then doesn't that underscore the concerns of inherent misogyny still prevalent among some people of that community?

    She's trying to use the mass genocide of Jews as an example to validate importing a sexist conformity into a country that is trying to eradicate sexist codes of conduct (among other issues) in order to maintain its cultural identity as the global birthplace of enlightenment. As a result of that, it is a cornerstone of their policy to hold all religions to the same strict scrutiny of social logic.

    France is not the United States of America. France is not Canada. They are a different country.
    Last edited by George Caltsoudas; 01-09-2015 at 03:46 AM.

  2. #47
    Surfing With The Alien Spike-X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Caltsoudas View Post
    Sorry. You've lost me.

    That woman is saying that walking out NOT covered up has pitted her under constant threat.
    No she's not.

    a protester against the law who had been twice arrested for wearing a niqab
    Her choice of head covering is banned under the law. She chooses to wear it anyway. The attacks she suffers are as a result of that, by racists and xenephobes emboldened by their government's codification of their bigotry into law.

  3. #48
    Mighty Member mugiwara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Caltsoudas View Post
    Sorry. You've lost me.

    That woman is saying that walking out NOT covered up has pitted her under constant threat.

    If these threats are from non-Muslim French, then wouldn't those threats and insults still be directed toward her by the same racists when wearing a niqab?
    She doesn't say that she is not covered.
    From what I understand, she is going out wearing niqab and some assholes, who feel strong because they have the law with them, are insulting and/or threatening her.

    (BTW, it is true too that some women are also insulted/threatened because they are not covered.)

    That law was pretty stupid, because they could have use some pre-existing law that forbids people to hide their faces in public. But that's french politicians for you: always creating new, redundant laws to make people believe they are doing something usefull.
    On a personal note, I'm rather opposed to the veil ban in streets. I wish everybody, including naturists, were allowed to walk in the streets with (or without) the clothes thay want. On the other side, if a woman wearing a niqab is submitted to an indentity control, she should show her face to the cop, because religion is not above law.

  4. #49
    Mighty Member mugiwara's Avatar
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    Here is the full list of the victims:

    charlie.JPG

    Among thiose who has been injured, the webmaster Simon Fieschi is in a very serious state.

  5. #50
    Veteran Member PretenderNX01's Avatar
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    http://www.mediaite.com/online/jesui...charlie-hebdo/

    In the aftermath of the deadly terrorist attack on Charlie Hebdo, #JeSuisCharlie (or “I am Charlie”) became the rallying cry of solidarity on social media. But today, a new hashtag started to spread: #JeSuisAhmed, honoring Ahmed Merabet, one of the two police officers killed in the attack who just happened to be Muslim.

    The first tweet came from a French magazine publisher living in Morocco named Julien Casters, who told the BBC Trending blog:

    “I decided to start the #jesuisahmed hashtag to remember that a French Muslim was also a victim of the attack. It is a snub to the stigmatisation of Islam and a reminder that Muslims in France are not all Islamist radicals. It seemed important to try to unite two years before the presidential elections in France, since the only ones to benefit from these terrorist acts are the extreme right political parties.”


    Examples include:
    Dyab Abou Jahjah @Aboujahjah
    I am not Charlie, I am Ahmed the dead cop. Charlie ridiculed my faith and culture and I died defending his right to do so. #JesuisAhmed

    Faran Ahmed Khan @faaran
    #JeSuisAhmed True Hero, protecting the magazine who made fun of his religion.

    Adalia Conti @AJ_Conti
    "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." Voltaire #JeSuisAhmed
    Last edited by PretenderNX01; 01-09-2015 at 04:31 AM.

  6. #51

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    Sorry I couldn't understand it clearly because her actual statement began with: "My quality of life has seriously deteriorated since the ban" which made it sound like she was describing what everyday life is like for her stepping out without being covered anymore.

    Unfortunately though, if that country has decided to ban it, then that's just one cultural compromise one must come to terms with. Using Anti-Semitism and the Holocaust to validate breaking the law is a bit extreme.

  7. #52
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    A co-worker and I discussed the Charlie Hebdo incident this morning. An older woman, she shook her head and said, "It's a damn shame those people were killed, but they had to know something like that might happen. As my grandma once told me, 'Don't mess with the bear if you don't want to get eaten'." I would imagine a lot of people from the highest corridors of political power to the nearby water cooler are probably thinking the same thing, that CH provoked those madmen into attacking them, in effect, shifting blame for that slaughter from the murderers to the murdered. I for one don't agree with that one bit, you shouldn't have to lose your life for exercising your right of free speech.
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  8. #53
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double 0 View Post
    And I have zero respect for people who think the Quran tells them to do anything like that.
    Well that's pretty much everyone who knows what the Quran says thinks - because that it what it says.

    That's one of many many reasons why I don't follow the Quran (or any other religion).

  9. #54
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guest_1001 View Post
    Two significant - and incredibly basic - problems with this: firstly, there are entire denominations that have spun out of different interpretations of religious texts, so to say "they represent what's written within their sacred texts" is oversimplified nonsense. Secondly, no, religion is not an "all-or-nothing" package deal. To think so is to stubbornly paint all religious groups as exactly the same and to blatantly ignore the reality that -- shock, horror -- religious people are the normal people you meet every day and all believe different things.



    Please educate yourself about Islam and the French ban because this was downright painful to read. Even if it's just Wikipedia. Maybe this will help you be more informed:

    The French Collective against Islamophobia reported "an explosion" in the number of physical attacks on women wearing the niqab. Hind Ahmas, a protester against the law who had been twice arrested for wearing a niqab said, "My quality of life has seriously deteriorated since the ban. In my head, I have to prepare for war every time I step outside, prepare to come up against people who want to put a bullet in my head. The politicians claimed they were liberating us; what they've done is to exclude us from the social sphere. Before this law, I never asked myself whether I'd be able to make it to a cafe or collect documents from a town hall. One politician in favour of the ban said niqabs were 'walking prisons'. Well, that's exactly where we've been stuck by this law." Kenza Drider, another protester against the law, said she lives in fear of attack. "I'm insulted about three to four times a day. Most say, 'Go home'; some say, 'We'll kill you.' One said: 'We'll do to you what we did to the Jews.'... I feel that I now know what Jewish women went through before the Nazi roundups in France. When they went out in the street they were identified, singled out, they were vilified. Now that's happening to us."
    So basically "My quality of life has deteriorated since I started breaking the law".

    I'm conflicted on the law itself. It may or may not have been well intentioned - and I doubt the result has been positive - but complaining that breaking the law makes your life worse is a pretty lousy argument.

  10. #55
    Rookie Member David B.'s Avatar
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    While the 2 terrorists have taken one hostage, another terrorist, suspected to be a member of the same terror cell, and who has killed a police woman in Paris yesterday, is now holding 5 hostages (women and children) at a kasher supermarket

    A co-worker and I discussed the Charlie Hebdo incident this morning. An older woman, she shook her head and said, "It's a damn shame those people were killed, but they had to know something like that might happen. As my grandma once told me, 'Don't mess with the bear if you don't want to get eaten'."
    Does she also blame women when they get raped? Seriously, if someone tells another something offensive, or if they feel oppressed, they should report it to the police and then let the justice decide if a punishment if needed; YOU DON'T GO AROUND KILLING PEOPLE BECAUSE YOU ARE OFFENDED!!!! (I'm not screaming at you Westphilly, but at all the people who try to rationalize the act of madmen)
    Previously known as Psyshot

  11. #56
    Mighty Member mugiwara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David B. View Post
    While the 2 terrorists have taken one hostage, another terrorist, suspected to be a member of the same terror cell, and who has killed a police woman in Paris yesterday, is now holding 5 hostages (women and children) at a kasher supermarket
    They say that at least 2 people have been killed.
    Can we please go back in 1985, Doc?

  12. #57
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    And I have zero respect for all religion not just the Quran. It has a long history of repressing freedom of speech and expression.
    We would have had at least as many wars without religion, since zealots will always find something to be zealous about.
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  13. #58
    DARKSEID LAUGHS... Crazy Diamond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David B. View Post
    While the 2 terrorists have taken one hostage, another terrorist, suspected to be a member of the same terror cell, and who has killed a police woman in Paris yesterday, is now holding 5 hostages (women and children) at a kasher supermarket



    Does she also blame women when they get raped? Seriously, if someone tells another something offensive, or if they feel oppressed, they should report it to the police and then let the justice decide if a punishment if needed; YOU DON'T GO AROUND KILLING PEOPLE BECAUSE YOU ARE OFFENDED!!!! (I'm not screaming at you Westphilly, but at all the people who try to rationalize the act of madmen)
    Because getting raped is the same as putting out crappy cartoons right? I guess freedom of speech really means that European liberals have the right to sneer and mock marginalized immigrants in their home countries who oftentimes have to deal with generational poverty, police brutality, and being treated like second-class citizens (when they're not blamed for mooching off the government). At least Charlie Hebdo mocked Christianity unlike the Jyllands-Posten who backed away from that because they were afraid of the far-right groups in Denmark. These killings can not be taken outside of a larger context of Western imperialism. Drones kill hundreds and that isn't called terrorism, no that's 'collateral damage'. Then the local reactionaries (oftentimes with support from the CIA and other such agencies) use those deaths as propaganda to get more support. The cartoons are used as a symbol of how the West hates Islam and wants to destroy it. Even then, how can anyone justify these cartoons:

    http://avantblargh.tumblr.com/post/107422672105
    tumblr_nhtixkLO3w1qzi1v3o3_500.jpg

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  14. #59
    Rookie Member David B.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy Diamond View Post
    Because getting raped is the same as putting out crappy cartoons right?
    No, I was comparing rape to murder.

    I guess freedom of speech really means that European liberals have the right to sneer and mock marginalized immigrants in their home countries who oftentimes have to deal with generational poverty, police brutality, and being treated like second-class citizens (when they're not blamed for mooching off the government).
    They were mocking EVERYONE, rich or poor, french or immigrants, right and left (mostly extreme right). And most of the muslims in France are there since 2 or 3 generations, sometimes more. The terrorists ARE french.

    At the time this cartoon was made, the extreme right was protesting the french black minister of justice with pictures comparing her to an ape but they were adamant that they were not racists. This cartoon drawn by Charb states that this was Racist (it is written in the text).

    The black guy with the quenelle in the ass? french humorist Dieudonne known for his antisemitism who popularized a gesture of the same name ("la quenelle") used a lot by, well... antisemistists.

    The 2 women licking the crucifix? 2 right wings christians politicians who were opposed to same sex-marriage.

    The Charia picture? it is mocking Dominique Strauss Kahn, rapist caught in another sex scandal at the time of the drawing.

    etc...
    Last edited by David B.; 01-09-2015 at 11:06 AM.
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  15. #60
    Mighty Member mugiwara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy Diamond View Post
    Because getting raped is the same as putting out crappy cartoons right? I guess freedom of speech really means that European liberals have the right to sneer and mock marginalized immigrants in their home countries who oftentimes have to deal with generational poverty, police brutality, and being treated like second-class citizens (when they're not blamed for mooching off the government). At least Charlie Hebdo mocked Christianity unlike the Jyllands-Posten who backed away from that because they were afraid of the far-right groups in Denmark. These killings can not be taken outside of a larger context of Western imperialism. Drones kill hundreds and that isn't called terrorism, no that's 'collateral damage'. Then the local reactionaries (oftentimes with support from the CIA and other such agencies) use those deaths as propaganda to get more support. The cartoons are used as a symbol of how the West hates Islam and wants to destroy it. Even then, how can anyone justify these cartoons:

    http://avantblargh.tumblr.com/post/107422672105
    tumblr_nhtixkLO3w1qzi1v3o3_500.jpg

    It's not A Modest Proposal, The War Prayer, or The Black White Supremacist.
    Charlie mocked Muhammad (although they were often softer with him that they were with other people).
    Charlie mocked the islam fanatics.

    Charlie never mocked muslims, unless one consider that muslims = islami fanatics.

    Oh, and that cartoon of Christiane Taubira? It was used as an attack to the members of the Front National who depicted Taubira as a monkey.
    Because yes, in cartoons there is a context, and Christina Taubira knows very well the difference between what the FN member did and what Charlie Hebdo did.

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