Avengers #29 (Spoilers)

[UltimateTy]

He started threatening them with the robots before the fight started.

They crashed into his place and Cap attacked him before he showed them his suits

[SuperBeetle]

They crashed into his place and Cap attacked him before he showed them his suits

And then they stopped and gave him time to explain but instead he used the Iron Man suits.

[XPac]

They crashed into his place and Cap attacked him before he showed them his suits

If you wanna use the "he started it" rationale, Cap did all that after Stark plotted to mind wipe him.

The point being, Stark had the opportunity to explain himself. Even after Steve hit it, the other Avengers held Steve back and allowed Stark to try and explain himself. But his explanation essentially amounting to surrounding them with bots and asking: "what are you going to do about it?" simply didn't do Stark himself too many favors.

[Tony Stark]

Remember, Tony tried but that's when Steve threw the punch. I guess he had enough. And Steve had plenty of time to tell about his role in the Illuminati. Also this, if he remembered everything about the Incursion problem why wasn't his first question, is the threat over instead of asking Tony what is he hiding?

Quoted for truth! When Cyclops did it during AvX. It was Cyclops fault as he threw the first blow. Cap did the same thing here, but yet Cap is right. Cap threw the first punch and ran there with quite a bit of back up.

[gregyo]

I still think Cyclops was right in AvX.

[G0RM]

NA #14: "move worlds" - "place them in a new sky"

So if Cap, instead of using 616's Infinity Gauntlet to push an Earth located in another Universe, had teleported our Earth to a different location, phased it as per Kitty and the bullet, shrunk it to sub microscopic as Pym, etc, then the Gauntlet would not have been destroyed, and it could have been reused indefinitely, correct?

(Thus Cap acted unimaginatively, reaching out with a hand to push outward at the 'threatening universe', rather than doing something more original within our own. And as far as their not thinking of it, could the Illuminati have already used the Mind Gem to make reuniting the Gauntlet 'inconceivable' to themselves?)

I'm wondering if Strange's teleporting scenario will work, or if the Earths 'home in' like missiles. Otherwise just moving an Earth a few million miles would work as well as destroying it.

It also occurred to me, as Strange seems to be saying, if the two Earths are swapped across universes, then what happens? Would the whole system rebalance, and all incursions stop?

Given that this is multiversal, presumably when the last pair of existent Earths collide, the entire multiverse will be destroyed, and so by eliminating your native universe's Earth, you 'opt out' of incursions, but also lose the chance of contributing to the overall solution.

(Well, maybe by evacuating your own Earth and destroying it, then using a bridge elsewhen, the Illuminati could be using Earth 11000 as a base, while life goes on on Terra Nova, and the rest of 616 is unaffected until Endgame etc <Do we at least get to keep our own Moon?-)

[XPac]

Quoted for truth! When Cyclops did it during AvX. It was Cyclops fault as he threw the first blow. Cap did the same thing here, but yet Cap is right. Cap threw the first punch and ran there with quite a bit of back up.

Again if you want to simplify the issue to who started it, Caps actions were a reaction to the Illuminati mind wiping him. And obviously that occured well before anything Cap did in this issue. There's a reason I think people are cutting Cap a break in this situation.

But really I think the criticism against Stark is independent of that. Because despite Cap's actions, Stark still could have chosen to actually try and explain his actions. Instead his response was essentially "what are you going to do about it." Again, the other Avengers held Cap back and were trying to give Stark a chance to have his say. It's just that Stark said and did all the wrong things. So Stark kind of blew his chance there.

[XPac]

So if Cap, instead of using 616's Infinity Gauntlet to push an Earth located in another Universe, had teleported our Earth to a different location, phased it as per Kitty and the bullet, shrunk it to sub microscopic as Pym, etc, then the Gauntlet would not have been destroyed, and it could have been reused indefinitely, correct?

(Thus Cap acted unimaginatively, reaching out with a hand to push outward at the 'threatening universe', rather than doing something more original within our own. And as far as their not thinking of it, could the Illuminati have already used the Mind Gem to make reuniting the Gauntlet 'inconceivable' to themselves?)

I'm wondering if Strange's teleporting scenario will work, or if the Earths 'home in' like missiles. Otherwise just moving an Earth a few million miles would work as well as destroying it.

It also occurred to me, as Strange seems to be saying, if the two Earths are swapped across universes, then what happens? Would the whole system rebalance, and all incursions stop?

Given that this is multiversal, presumably when the last pair of existent Earths collide, the entire multiverse will be destroyed, and so by eliminating your native universe's Earth, you 'opt out' of incursions, but also lose the chance of contributing to the overall solution.

(Well, maybe by evacuating your own Earth and destroying it, then using a bridge elsewhen, the Illuminati could be using Earth 11000 as a base, while life goes on on Terra Nova, and the rest of 616 is unaffected until Endgame etc <Do we at least get to keep our own Moon?-)

Steve admittedly didn't know what he was doing. None of them did really. He asked what he needed to do, and Reed and Stark told him to just push it back. Obviously none of them knew the Gauntlet would be destroyed. Really, none of them could be faulted for that since it shouldn't be possible to destroy the Gauntlet. Hickman sort of bent the rules a bit to take the gems out of play. So they had no reason to think the gems would be resusable regardless of what they tried.

But as far as what Strange will do... hard to say. Whatever he does, presumably it will work at least for our earth. I guess the question mark will be whether or not it screws over the other one. If it's repeatable and it doesn't destroy the other world, at least they don't have to kill anyone. That would be nice... though I suspect too easy a sollution unless there's some sort of catch to the whole thing.

[Tony Stark]

Again if you want to simplify the issue to who started it, Caps actions were a reaction to the Illuminati mind wiping him. And obviously that occured well before anything Cap did in this issue. There's a reason I think people are cutting Cap a break in this situation.

But really I think the criticism against Stark is independent of that. Because despite Cap's actions, Stark still could have chosen to actually try and explain his actions. Instead his response was essentially "what are you going to do about it." Again, the other Avengers held Cap back and were trying to give Stark a chance to have his say. It's just that Stark said and did all the wrong things. So Stark kind of blew his chance there.

Cap had a right to come at Tony, but then he brought alot of Avengers with him as well and even if Tony told them what was going on what was to stop them from going at him again. We will just agree to disagree on this as we have talked about this before,

[jphamlore]

Cap had a right to come at Tony, but then he brought alot of Avengers with him as well and even if Tony told them what was going on what was to stop them from going at him again. We will just agree to disagree on this as we have talked about this before,

Uh, Cap just awoke from a memory where he had been mindwiped. Of course he's going to bring heavy forces this time to talk with Stark.

[Tony Stark]

Uh, Cap just awoke from a memory where he had been mindwiped. Of course he's going to bring heavy forces this time to talk with Stark.

He could have come at Tony just him. He was part of the Illuminati so he knew who was in it and some of what happened. Now of course he had every right to want to knock Tony down for being part of the mind wipe, but he didn't need all the back up. That's my take and you have a different one. That's all.

[XPac]

Cap had a right to come at Tony, but then he brought alot of Avengers with him as well and even if Tony told them what was going on what was to stop them from going at him again. We will just agree to disagree on this as we have talked about this before,

It was a good thing that Steve brought other Avengers with him because again, when Steve hit Tony they held Steve back. Steve understandably was probably a bit too upset to give Stark the benefit of the doubt, but the other Avengers clearly were. That's why the held Steve back and gave Stark a chance to give his side of things. But like I said, Stark kind of blew it in that regard.

[SXVA]

Cap revealing the Illuminati to others. and the way he confronted Tony made him look like a child.

And he had to get Thor to confront Tony? What is Thor his daddy?

He came off so poorly IMO. I didn't care much for ol' Cap to begin with all that much but geez... f there ever was reasons to, this entire farce would be some of them lol.

And what's with Hawkeye, and some of the others just jumping at the beckoning command of Steve without reasons/answers.

Bring on Civil War part 2!!! With Tony's led team beating Steve's, as it should be.

Why is the Captain even in the illuminanti, isn't it supposed to consist of the greatest thinkers and minds... his black and white views have no place with thinkers.

[jphamlore]

The tricky problem for Cap is what happens if he discovers the presence of dozens if not hundreds of planet-busting anti-matter bombs at the Necropolis. They are a clear and present danger to the planet as shown by the Thanos invasion and should be disarmed as soon as possible. On the other hand there is no easy way to get to them because despite T'Challa's being on the outs with Shuri, a conventional force would have to go through Wakandan airspace and land to get to the Necropolis. The Avengers I suppose have multiple means within their side to teleport into the Necropolis. Teleport the bombs into the Sun?

Then again thank goodness the bombs are in the Necropolis because with the present state of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s slipping into outright villainry (they've got Sentinels, guess what AXIS will probably be about), it is for the best for them to not lay their hands on such weapons, especially if in synchronicity with the movieverse, supervillains might be controlling their strings.

[Tony Stark]

It was a good thing that Steve brought other Avengers with him because again, when Steve hit Tony they held Steve back. Steve understandably was probably a bit too upset to give Stark the benefit of the doubt, but the other Avengers clearly were. That's why the held Steve back and gave Stark a chance to give his side of things. But like I said, Stark kind of blew it in that regard.

As I said he had every right to kick Tony's ass for being apart of the mind wipe, but when Tony called his armors. He had already been attacked and was clearly outnumbered. Even if Tony explained himself. What was to stop them from going at him again. We just see this confrontation differently as i Stated before.