I wasn't saying Superman is a dumb thug who just knows how to flail around.
I was saying that Superman has little or no FORMAL TRAINING in how to fight.
THAT is Wonder Woman's big advantage over Superman, and it's Zod's advantage as well. They are just better strategic fighters. They understand the concepts of "Move and Counter-Move" better than he does.
His usual method of fighting usually revolves around overwhelming his opponent with the sheer potency of his offense. Given HOW potent his offense is? That's generally good enough for most of his fights. But against an opponent who is trained to predict and counter such maneuvers? It can be a bit of an issue.
As I said earlier: Diana MAY have won that fight against Doomsday. Possibly. If she had won it, it would NOT be because she's as strong/powerful as Doomsday or Superman. She would've won because she had a weapon that could hurt Doomsday and the skill and training to counter Doomsday's offense while dishing out damage herself. Diana also did better against Zod and Faora than Clark did because she was able to recognize their offensive strategy and counter it.
Superman doesn't generally do stuff like that. This is generally why Superman's most challenging opponents are the one who are SMART, instead of, or in addition to, powerful.
Though much is taken, much abides; and though
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
--Lord Alfred Tennyson--
Though much is taken, much abides; and though
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
--Lord Alfred Tennyson--
Trading blows with Doomsday = death? Did you read the panels of Superman's fight with Doomsday? It was a series of trading blows! For you pugilistic fans, Doomsday landed 1) heavy right cross, 2) body blow that bends Superman at the waist, 3) knocks Superman against a wall of rock, 4) tries to crush Superman's head, 5) slams Superman to the ground, 6) several ground-n-pound blows.
Luthor said Superman was the guy who "represent[s] the most concentrated source of raw power anywhere on the planet. Who knows, maybe anywhere in the galaxy." Luthor, again, said, "No one here would survive a fight with Doomsday." So nobody said only Superman can beat Doomsday.
Anyway, just forget I said anything. Proceed as usual.
Last edited by DochaDocha; 05-16-2014 at 11:41 AM.
Formal training is not the end all be all of a conflict or a fight. The instincts, sheer creativity, intelligence, and resourcefulness that Superman uses in the new 52 should be just as good IMO. It's shown to make him (when written for it (Morrison, Pak, and Lobdell)) a force to be reckoned with regardless of what your training or power is that you bring to combat him.
An issue that he's shown to correct even while fighting a trained intangible solder. In fact Superman used the assumption that the solder had of him as just a mad brute and took him down with style. The man is a great with assessing, adapting, and reconvening to battle a situation in nearly any form.His usual method of fighting usually revolves around overwhelming his opponent with the sheer potency of his offense. Given HOW potent his offense is? That's generally good enough for most of his fights. But against an opponent who is trained to predict and counter such maneuvers? It can be a bit of an issue.
How would she have done it? That blade of her's was eaten by Doomsday's poison after it got stuck there. It also left no real lasting damage that stopped him. Also how could she fight him? It's clearly stated that Superman is the only being on the planet who can stand to fight him for any real amount of time. The words to Superman were "No. I'm saying you're the ONLY PERSON on the planet who can survive more than ten minutes in direct combat with it". It's said plan as day and the re stated and re enforced all around the comic. With out he sword to cut it and with roughly ten minutes to fight a thing that was strong enough to break her arms with a punch.....WHEN IT WAS WEAKER....how could she have really done it alone? Diana is on the planet she is part of that whole group of people (everyone who's not Superman) who can't fight that thing.As I said earlier: Diana MAY have won that fight against Doomsday. Possibly. If she had won it, it would NOT be because she's as strong/powerful as Doomsday or Superman. She would've won because she had a weapon that could hurt Doomsday and the skill and training to counter Doomsday's offense while dishing out damage herself. Diana also did better against Zod and Faora than Clark did because she was able to recognize their offensive strategy and counter it.
I agree with you on the Zod thing though. She recognized his military tactics but it was still a bit unbelievable that Superman couldn't counter Zod in any meaningful with out her given his track record ingenuity, and creativity in the new 52.
One of the main reasons he beats guys like Lex, Brainiac and so on are because he recognizes their plan at some point and counters it with one of his own. I gave you a whole host of examples from the new 52 recognizing what his foe is doing and countering it in real time. Even in the Batman/Superman book Steel out right tells Batgirl "he's Superman....he always has a plan" then we see that he in fact does have one.Superman doesn't generally do stuff like that. This is generally why Superman's most challenging opponents are the one who are SMART, instead of, or in addition to, powerful.
I will say that the balance is that he can be a bit quick to rush in and too willing to take the hits that no one else can. This along with his heart are what people use against him more often than not.
Doomsday never got a CHANCE to hit her, and after the fight her and John Henry were still poisoned. It was only after she got back to the JL that she seemed fine. A good showing of her healing. But I maintain if the fight had gone on with out Superman her mobility would have been shot and Doomsday (guy who breaks her arms while she's blocking in one hit) would have taken it.
Based on interviews that discuss that the morality of killing will continue to be explored in this event going forward, and your description of Doomsday here, am I correct to assume that this Doomsday is a sentient creature and that, as I believe was said in an interview, Superman killed it? Also, maybe you or someone else can refresh my memory or clarify something for me. I was under the impression that this Doomsday was more than just a fighter with spores to infect people and make them act oddly like Superman currently is. Doomsday was described as actually sucking the life out of the places and people he encountered. Why was that effect not more obvious, and if it was known by the League including Doomsday's singular interest in the powerful Superman, why couldn't Superman lure Doomsday out into space instead of keeping the fight on Earth in populated areas.
Superman did lure it into space (the first thing he did when he got to fight it). Actually he punched it then rammed it all the way to Venus. When their he tried to burn it to death. He came back a bit worse for wear and the thing followed. He was weakened and had little time to react so he ripped it in half and inhaled to spores.
I haven't read all the interviews, but when Superman asked Dr. Veritas if Doomsday was sentient, she never really answered.
My opinion? This Doomsday is about as sentient as the one that killed Superman in Superman #75 vol 2. Superman went for the kill back then, and succeeded, or at least succeeded as much as one can against Doomsday. I have a fair amount of ambivalence for that, so I can't say one way or another if it's good or bad. Well, I guess I can say I accept and dislike aspects of it.
I also read it that when they first encountered the "larva" form of Doomsday, he didn't have that area-effect ability to destroy his surroundings and suck the life out of the creatures, but as he gained power and morphed into the next stage of his development, he started doing that. That's why it wasn't more obvious in his earlier appearances, because he simply didn't do that then, but now as he's no longer in the larva phase, everything around him gets destroyed. These aspects of Doomsday weren't apparent until Doomed #1, and Doomsday's interest in Superman didn't become obvious until Luthor butted into their meeting in the JL satellite. As Dr. Veritas said, Doomy went from "Massive, physical power. Enough to kill [Superman]. But that's the extent of it," to a life-sucking rampage that boiled the water around him, caused people to spontaneously combust, turned sand under his feet to black onyx, and caused other objects to lose molecular cohesion.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by DochaDocha; 05-16-2014 at 12:25 PM.
Oh, right!
I forgot, you're part of the "Wonder Woman can NEVER be Superman's equal, nor can she be better than him at anything, and any evidence to the contrary MUST be crapped upon and discredited at every turn" faction.
Very well. You go right on believing what you believe. I'll just keep on enjoying the sight of Diana going toe-to-toe with three of Superman's biggest foes.
Carry on.
Last edited by Vanguard-01; 05-16-2014 at 09:39 PM.
Though much is taken, much abides; and though
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
--Lord Alfred Tennyson--
I'm not sure he even has a circulatory system or lungs.
the sword attacks primary purpose in the story it to show how frakking powerful Doomsday is.
The reason she didn't have a scratch on her (apart from the poison killing her) was because Superman arrived in the nick of time.
Good point about Batman. He also has someone helping him with distractions.As a "brute warrior?" She used a battle cry to unnerve an opponent before she engaged him. That's called "strategy." Not brute force. Batman uses intimidation tactics to unnerve his opponents all the time.
Last edited by brettc1; 05-16-2014 at 07:40 PM.
There is certainly a level of at least animal cunning in play here. Doomsday retreats from Supes and Wonder Woman. It seems to recognize that together these two could present to great a threat, and is willing to bide its time. This is probably also why Superman has to face it alone - trying to double team it would just mean it would slip away and kill more innocent people.