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  1. #31
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    The sucking chest wound in Doomsday's chest, plus the fact that Diana didn't have a scratch on her says differently.

    But don't let the facts get in the way of a good SM/WW-hate.



    As a "brute warrior?" She used a battle cry to unnerve an opponent before she engaged him. That's called "strategy." Not brute force. Batman uses intimidation tactics to unnerve his opponents all the time.
    Not a scratch? She was covered in wounds from just being next to the creature. She fought through it, but she was obviously hurt.

  2. #32
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I just wanna say that this is an inaccurate assessment of the new 52 Superman. He does NOT simply rely on brawn to win a conflict. Grant Morrison, Greg Pak, and even Scott Lobdell (who's shown some of the smartest and most controlled uses of Superman's power) have shown this OVER and OVER again. Superman is a master of his powers and adjusting to fight his foe. Turing off his brain to fight a telepath, using a miniaturized rocket to reprogram Brainiac, coming up with a 5 year plan to beat back a 5th dimensional god, scanning his foes bone density to understand how hard he can hit them, while fighting he figured out how his foe's intangibility worked and then came up with a way to stop it on the spot, and lastly he made his opponent think he'd gone mad with rage only to turn the tide in a finishing move that he pulled off effortlessly.

    The man shown in the new 52 is an amazing combatant and just like he said in issue 8 of SM/WW "I don't show it off, like some people. But I'm a clever clever boy, Diana". The very idea that brawn is all he is makes little sense outside of the one issue of SM/WW.
    I wasn't saying Superman is a dumb thug who just knows how to flail around.

    I was saying that Superman has little or no FORMAL TRAINING in how to fight.

    THAT is Wonder Woman's big advantage over Superman, and it's Zod's advantage as well. They are just better strategic fighters. They understand the concepts of "Move and Counter-Move" better than he does.

    His usual method of fighting usually revolves around overwhelming his opponent with the sheer potency of his offense. Given HOW potent his offense is? That's generally good enough for most of his fights. But against an opponent who is trained to predict and counter such maneuvers? It can be a bit of an issue.

    As I said earlier: Diana MAY have won that fight against Doomsday. Possibly. If she had won it, it would NOT be because she's as strong/powerful as Doomsday or Superman. She would've won because she had a weapon that could hurt Doomsday and the skill and training to counter Doomsday's offense while dishing out damage herself. Diana also did better against Zod and Faora than Clark did because she was able to recognize their offensive strategy and counter it.

    Superman doesn't generally do stuff like that. This is generally why Superman's most challenging opponents are the one who are SMART, instead of, or in addition to, powerful.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    It's called "trading blows." It's like the biggest fiction fight trope of all time. Character A gets the first hit, character B then gets the next hit, and that's exactly what happened, and that's also what happened when Superman fought Doomsday.

    Not to get all geeky, but fiction likes their fight outcomes to look like sine curves, when in reality, contested fights probably look more like two-directional Brownian motions.

    EDIT: Luthor says, "No one here [referring to every JL member, including Superman] would survive a fight with Doomsday." Clearly he was wrong, or at least it wasn't correct to say Doomsday would win a fist fight with any of them.
    trading blows with doomsday = death. she was going to lose, she was hurt.

    IDK who said that Superman was big source of raw power, it's the same that say that he is the only one that can defeat doomsday.

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Not a scratch? She was covered in wounds from just being next to the creature. She fought through it, but she was obviously hurt.
    She was being POISONED. Doomsday didn't actually lay a hand on her. Thus? No wounds. Just a poison that was weakening her as she fought. As soon as Doomsday retreated? She looked hale and hearty again.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksun View Post
    trading blows with doomsday = death. she was going to lose, she was hurt.

    IDK who said that Superman was big source of raw power, it's the same that say that he is the only one that can defeat doomsday.
    Trading blows with Doomsday = death? Did you read the panels of Superman's fight with Doomsday? It was a series of trading blows! For you pugilistic fans, Doomsday landed 1) heavy right cross, 2) body blow that bends Superman at the waist, 3) knocks Superman against a wall of rock, 4) tries to crush Superman's head, 5) slams Superman to the ground, 6) several ground-n-pound blows.

    Luthor said Superman was the guy who "represent[s] the most concentrated source of raw power anywhere on the planet. Who knows, maybe anywhere in the galaxy." Luthor, again, said, "No one here would survive a fight with Doomsday." So nobody said only Superman can beat Doomsday.

    Anyway, just forget I said anything. Proceed as usual.
    Last edited by DochaDocha; 05-16-2014 at 11:41 AM.

  6. #36
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    I wasn't saying Superman is a dumb thug who just knows how to flail around.

    I was saying that Superman has little or no FORMAL TRAINING in how to fight.

    THAT is Wonder Woman's big advantage over Superman, and it's Zod's advantage as well. They are just better strategic fighters. They understand the concepts of "Move and Counter-Move" better than he does.
    Formal training is not the end all be all of a conflict or a fight. The instincts, sheer creativity, intelligence, and resourcefulness that Superman uses in the new 52 should be just as good IMO. It's shown to make him (when written for it (Morrison, Pak, and Lobdell)) a force to be reckoned with regardless of what your training or power is that you bring to combat him.

    His usual method of fighting usually revolves around overwhelming his opponent with the sheer potency of his offense. Given HOW potent his offense is? That's generally good enough for most of his fights. But against an opponent who is trained to predict and counter such maneuvers? It can be a bit of an issue.
    An issue that he's shown to correct even while fighting a trained intangible solder. In fact Superman used the assumption that the solder had of him as just a mad brute and took him down with style. The man is a great with assessing, adapting, and reconvening to battle a situation in nearly any form.

    As I said earlier: Diana MAY have won that fight against Doomsday. Possibly. If she had won it, it would NOT be because she's as strong/powerful as Doomsday or Superman. She would've won because she had a weapon that could hurt Doomsday and the skill and training to counter Doomsday's offense while dishing out damage herself. Diana also did better against Zod and Faora than Clark did because she was able to recognize their offensive strategy and counter it.
    How would she have done it? That blade of her's was eaten by Doomsday's poison after it got stuck there. It also left no real lasting damage that stopped him. Also how could she fight him? It's clearly stated that Superman is the only being on the planet who can stand to fight him for any real amount of time. The words to Superman were "No. I'm saying you're the ONLY PERSON on the planet who can survive more than ten minutes in direct combat with it". It's said plan as day and the re stated and re enforced all around the comic. With out he sword to cut it and with roughly ten minutes to fight a thing that was strong enough to break her arms with a punch.....WHEN IT WAS WEAKER....how could she have really done it alone? Diana is on the planet she is part of that whole group of people (everyone who's not Superman) who can't fight that thing.

    I agree with you on the Zod thing though. She recognized his military tactics but it was still a bit unbelievable that Superman couldn't counter Zod in any meaningful with out her given his track record ingenuity, and creativity in the new 52.

    Superman doesn't generally do stuff like that. This is generally why Superman's most challenging opponents are the one who are SMART, instead of, or in addition to, powerful.
    One of the main reasons he beats guys like Lex, Brainiac and so on are because he recognizes their plan at some point and counters it with one of his own. I gave you a whole host of examples from the new 52 recognizing what his foe is doing and countering it in real time. Even in the Batman/Superman book Steel out right tells Batgirl "he's Superman....he always has a plan" then we see that he in fact does have one.

    I will say that the balance is that he can be a bit quick to rush in and too willing to take the hits that no one else can. This along with his heart are what people use against him more often than not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    She was being POISONED. Doomsday didn't actually lay a hand on her. Thus? No wounds. Just a poison that was weakening her as she fought. As soon as Doomsday retreated? She looked hale and hearty again.
    Doomsday never got a CHANCE to hit her, and after the fight her and John Henry were still poisoned. It was only after she got back to the JL that she seemed fine. A good showing of her healing. But I maintain if the fight had gone on with out Superman her mobility would have been shot and Doomsday (guy who breaks her arms while she's blocking in one hit) would have taken it.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    It's also fair to point out that in Mumbai, Doomsday didn't run away from Superman: he charged at Superman with an overhead double-fisted smash. Then when Superman left Doomsday to burn on Venus, Doomsday came back to attack Superman. So at some point, Doomsday felt confident (for lack of a better term) enough to attack Superman. I'm inclined to think he thought he couldn't beat both Wonder Woman and Superman together (and as it turns out, he probably would've lost, since he couldn't beat Superman solo). I don't know why anyone would conclude, with a high degree of certainty, that WW would've lost to Doomsday. Sure seems to me that it's purposefully inconclusive.

    And ditto BlackFeath's thoughts. Of course it's left for Superman to fight Doomsday mano-a-mano. That's Doomsday's legacy: Superman takes him down in a double KO.
    Based on interviews that discuss that the morality of killing will continue to be explored in this event going forward, and your description of Doomsday here, am I correct to assume that this Doomsday is a sentient creature and that, as I believe was said in an interview, Superman killed it? Also, maybe you or someone else can refresh my memory or clarify something for me. I was under the impression that this Doomsday was more than just a fighter with spores to infect people and make them act oddly like Superman currently is. Doomsday was described as actually sucking the life out of the places and people he encountered. Why was that effect not more obvious, and if it was known by the League including Doomsday's singular interest in the powerful Superman, why couldn't Superman lure Doomsday out into space instead of keeping the fight on Earth in populated areas.

  8. #38
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    Based on interviews that discuss that the morality of killing will continue to be explored in this event going forward, and your description of Doomsday here, am I correct to assume that this Doomsday is a sentient creature and that, as I believe was said in an interview, Superman killed it? Also, maybe you or someone else can refresh my memory or clarify something for me. I was under the impression that this Doomsday was more than just a fighter with spores to infect people and make them act oddly like Superman currently is. Doomsday was described as actually sucking the life out of the places and people he encountered. Why was that effect not more obvious, and if it was known by the League including Doomsday's singular interest in the powerful Superman, why couldn't Superman lure Doomsday out into space instead of keeping the fight on Earth in populated areas.
    Superman did lure it into space (the first thing he did when he got to fight it). Actually he punched it then rammed it all the way to Venus. When their he tried to burn it to death. He came back a bit worse for wear and the thing followed. He was weakened and had little time to react so he ripped it in half and inhaled to spores.

  9. #39
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Trading blows with Doomsday = death? Did you read the panels of Superman's fight with Doomsday? It was a series of trading blows! For you pugilistic fans, Doomsday landed 1) heavy right cross, 2) body blow that bends Superman at the waist, 3) knocks Superman against a wall of rock, 4) tries to crush Superman's head, 5) slams Superman to the ground, 6) several ground-n-pound blows.

    Luthor said Superman was the guy who "represent[s] the most concentrated source of raw power anywhere on the planet. Who knows, maybe anywhere in the galaxy." Luthor, again, said, "No one here would survive a fight with Doomsday." So nobody said only Superman can beat Doomsday.

    Anyway, just forget I said anything. Proceed as usual.
    I agree with your last part. I personally just didn't see how she could have done it given the situation and what everyone said. I very well could have been done I just don't see it.

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    Based on interviews that discuss that the morality of killing will continue to be explored in this event going forward, and your description of Doomsday here, am I correct to assume that this Doomsday is a sentient creature and that, as I believe was said in an interview, Superman killed it? Also, maybe you or someone else can refresh my memory or clarify something for me. I was under the impression that this Doomsday was more than just a fighter with spores to infect people and make them act oddly like Superman currently is. Doomsday was described as actually sucking the life out of the places and people he encountered. Why was that effect not more obvious, and if it was known by the League including Doomsday's singular interest in the powerful Superman, why couldn't Superman lure Doomsday out into space instead of keeping the fight on Earth in populated areas.
    I haven't read all the interviews, but when Superman asked Dr. Veritas if Doomsday was sentient, she never really answered.

    My opinion? This Doomsday is about as sentient as the one that killed Superman in Superman #75 vol 2. Superman went for the kill back then, and succeeded, or at least succeeded as much as one can against Doomsday. I have a fair amount of ambivalence for that, so I can't say one way or another if it's good or bad. Well, I guess I can say I accept and dislike aspects of it.

    I also read it that when they first encountered the "larva" form of Doomsday, he didn't have that area-effect ability to destroy his surroundings and suck the life out of the creatures, but as he gained power and morphed into the next stage of his development, he started doing that. That's why it wasn't more obvious in his earlier appearances, because he simply didn't do that then, but now as he's no longer in the larva phase, everything around him gets destroyed. These aspects of Doomsday weren't apparent until Doomed #1, and Doomsday's interest in Superman didn't become obvious until Luthor butted into their meeting in the JL satellite. As Dr. Veritas said, Doomy went from "Massive, physical power. Enough to kill [Superman]. But that's the extent of it," to a life-sucking rampage that boiled the water around him, caused people to spontaneously combust, turned sand under his feet to black onyx, and caused other objects to lose molecular cohesion.

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by DochaDocha; 05-16-2014 at 12:25 PM.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Hope this helps.
    It does. Thanks!

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    Based on interviews that discuss that the morality of killing will continue to be explored in this event going forward, and your description of Doomsday here, am I correct to assume that this Doomsday is a sentient creature and that, as I believe was said in an interview, Superman killed it?
    He seemed to think he wasn't sentient/sapient from their encounter, but was unable to confirm it.

  13. #43
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Formal training is not the end all be all of a conflict or a fight. The instincts, sheer creativity, intelligence, and resourcefulness that Superman uses in the new 52 should be just as good IMO. It's shown to make him (when written for it (Morrison, Pak, and Lobdell)) a force to be reckoned with regardless of what your training or power is that you bring to combat him.



    An issue that he's shown to correct even while fighting a trained intangible solder. In fact Superman used the assumption that the solder had of him as just a mad brute and took him down with style. The man is a great with assessing, adapting, and reconvening to battle a situation in nearly any form.



    How would she have done it? That blade of her's was eaten by Doomsday's poison after it got stuck there. It also left no real lasting damage that stopped him. Also how could she fight him? It's clearly stated that Superman is the only being on the planet who can stand to fight him for any real amount of time. The words to Superman were "No. I'm saying you're the ONLY PERSON on the planet who can survive more than ten minutes in direct combat with it". It's said plan as day and the re stated and re enforced all around the comic. With out he sword to cut it and with roughly ten minutes to fight a thing that was strong enough to break her arms with a punch.....WHEN IT WAS WEAKER....how could she have really done it alone? Diana is on the planet she is part of that whole group of people (everyone who's not Superman) who can't fight that thing.

    I agree with you on the Zod thing though. She recognized his military tactics but it was still a bit unbelievable that Superman couldn't counter Zod in any meaningful with out her given his track record ingenuity, and creativity in the new 52.



    One of the main reasons he beats guys like Lex, Brainiac and so on are because he recognizes their plan at some point and counters it with one of his own. I gave you a whole host of examples from the new 52 recognizing what his foe is doing and countering it in real time. Even in the Batman/Superman book Steel out right tells Batgirl "he's Superman....he always has a plan" then we see that he in fact does have one.

    I will say that the balance is that he can be a bit quick to rush in and too willing to take the hits that no one else can. This along with his heart are what people use against him more often than not.



    Doomsday never got a CHANCE to hit her, and after the fight her and John Henry were still poisoned. It was only after she got back to the JL that she seemed fine. A good showing of her healing. But I maintain if the fight had gone on with out Superman her mobility would have been shot and Doomsday (guy who breaks her arms while she's blocking in one hit) would have taken it.
    Oh, right!

    I forgot, you're part of the "Wonder Woman can NEVER be Superman's equal, nor can she be better than him at anything, and any evidence to the contrary MUST be crapped upon and discredited at every turn" faction.

    Very well. You go right on believing what you believe. I'll just keep on enjoying the sight of Diana going toe-to-toe with three of Superman's biggest foes.

    Carry on.
    Last edited by Vanguard-01; 05-16-2014 at 09:39 PM.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    The sucking chest wound in Doomsday's chest, plus the fact that Diana didn't have a scratch on her says differently.
    I'm not sure he even has a circulatory system or lungs.

    the sword attacks primary purpose in the story it to show how frakking powerful Doomsday is.

    The reason she didn't have a scratch on her (apart from the poison killing her) was because Superman arrived in the nick of time.


    As a "brute warrior?" She used a battle cry to unnerve an opponent before she engaged him. That's called "strategy." Not brute force. Batman uses intimidation tactics to unnerve his opponents all the time.
    Good point about Batman. He also has someone helping him with distractions.
    Last edited by brettc1; 05-16-2014 at 07:40 PM.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by dupersuper View Post
    He seemed to think he wasn't sentient/sapient from their encounter, but was unable to confirm it.
    There is certainly a level of at least animal cunning in play here. Doomsday retreats from Supes and Wonder Woman. It seems to recognize that together these two could present to great a threat, and is willing to bide its time. This is probably also why Superman has to face it alone - trying to double team it would just mean it would slip away and kill more innocent people.

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