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  1. #1
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    Default Black Widow (MCU) vs. Beatrix Kiddo (Kill Bill)



    VS.



    Fight 1

    No weapons. Strictly HTH. Takes place in a Dojo. Both are wearing plain clothes.

    Fight 2

    Both equipped with Hatori Hanzo swords. Takes place in a Dojo.

    Bonus Round

    Both trade their respective key fights in their films using the weapons each respective character was wielding at the time:

    Black Widow faces the Crazy 88 with a Hatori Hanzo sword as Beatrix Kiddo did. If she survives, she goes on to fight O-Ren Ishii. No guns or fancy gadgets allowed.

    Beatrix Kiddo must break into the Stark Towers and take down the security guards protecting the control room. Before entering the control room, she'll face Hawkeye as Black Widow did. No katana. Use of handguns and fancy gadgets allowed.

    Who wins which rounds?

  2. #2
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    All of this seems horribly biased against Widow. When does she ever use a sword? She probably does fine in HtH - she seems to have a decent speed and skill edge there, but all of the sword fights get her killed.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    All of this seems horribly biased against Widow. When does she ever use a sword? She probably does fine in HtH - she seems to have a decent speed and skill edge there, but all of the sword fights get her killed.
    Widow used that alien staff thingy pretty well during the Chitauri invasion. I peg her as a natural pick up and go kinda gal.

    What feats does Widow have that surpass Beatrix in HTH skill? Or speed for that matter?

  4. #4

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    Kiddo's best H2H feats come from her fight with Vernida Green at the begining of KB1, and nothing she did there puts her at Natasha's level. The eye snatch, and Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique, are silly, but I doubt she'd be able to pull them off on someone who's just flat out better, clearly stronger (having been able to take down Men and Aliens who are almost twice her size), and probably as fast, if not faster.

    While I assume an assassin of Natasha's skill level could sword fight, that's just conjecture. She has no feats, so it's a loss for her.

    As for the roll switch, I would assume they both die. With her complete lack of Sword fighting feats, I'm sure Tasha wouldn't last the entire C88 brawl, and I don't think that Kiddo could take down Hawkeye. She shows up, and gets an exploding arrow in the face.
    Last edited by Nalla_The_Black; 01-14-2015 at 12:36 PM.

  5. #5
    Rumbles Moderator Guy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-IN2 View Post


    VS.



    Fight 1

    No weapons. Strictly HTH. Takes place in a Dojo. Both are wearing plain clothes.

    Fight 2

    Both equipped with Hatori Hanzo swords. Takes place in a Dojo.

    Who wins which rounds?
    fightfightfight
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  6. #6

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    Fight 1

    No weapons. Strictly HTH. Takes place in a Dojo. Both are wearing plain clothes.

    Fight 2

    Both equipped with Hatori Hanzo swords. Takes place in a Dojo.

    Bonus Round

    Both trade their respective key fights in their films using the weapons each respective character was wielding at the time:
    Fight 1 goes to Black Widow. Fight 2 goes to Beatrix. Widow has never been shown to use a sword and while I'm sure she'd be very good that's hypothetical. Likewise, Beatrix doesn't have the H2H feats to hang with Black Widow

    Fight 3, they both fail. Again, we've never seen BW use a sword, and I can't recall any stealth feats that Beatrix has shown that would enable her to get the job done.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalla_The_Black View Post
    Kiddo's best H2H feats come from her fight with Vernida Green at the begining of KB1, and nothing she did there puts her at Natasha's level.
    What HTH feats does Black Widow have that puts her above Beatrix Kiddo?

    When she took out 5-6 security guards or when she took out an old man and his henchmen? Would you put these security guards and the Russian thugs at skill levels equal to Vernita Green, Pai Mei or Bill?

    Would you say Natasha's skills surpass Pai Mei or Bill?



    Quote Originally Posted by Nalla_The_Black View Post
    The eye snatch, and Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique, are silly,
    It's silly but effective.

    There's no proof such kung fu magic (the only explanation for such nonsensical technique) so I doubt that Natasha will discern 5 literal taps on her chest as death technique.






    Quote Originally Posted by Nalla_The_Black View Post
    but I doubt she'd be able to pull them off on someone who's just flat out better,
    Again, what feats does Natasha have that squarely puts her above Beatrix in HTH.

    Are you saying that those 5 security guards and the Russian thugs are HTH experts like Vernita Green or Bill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalla_The_Black View Post
    clearly stronger (having been able to take down Men and Aliens who are almost twice her size),
    I disagree with this portion on two points:

    Point 1



    Beatrix is supporting a full grown man with one arm on her sword. Though Pai Mei is certainly balancing himself, she's still supporting his full weight. I'd peg him at about 150 lbs at least.

    Point 2



    Beatrix was buried approximately 250 feet down in solid dirt and rock. Not only did she bust of a wooden coffin using one arm, she managed to displace at least 600 lbs of dirt and rock to crawl to the surface. That's not human strength. Even Batman in the comics who was buried alive in the Black Mask saga said it was very difficult to do. And he's comic book peak human and had his gadgets to bust him out.

    Also, Beatrix has feats of doing "Xena-lite" standing super jumps that defy physics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalla_The_Black View Post
    and probably as fast, if not faster.
    I'd say their speed is roughly equal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalla_The_Black View Post
    and I don't think that Kiddo could take down Hawkeye. She shows up, and gets an exploding arrow in the face.
    Would you say Beatrix would be able to get past the security guards. Black Widow has approximately 3 feats of HTH to her name. One of them is against the security guards. You state that BW is superior in HTH skill to Beatrix. Therefore, the security guards should be superior to HTH then Beatrix, no?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MidTierHero View Post
    This sexist joke really needs to be retired.



    Fight 1 goes to Black Widow. Fight 2 goes to Beatrix. Widow has never been shown to use a sword and while I'm sure she'd be very good that's hypothetical. Likewise, Beatrix doesn't have the H2H feats to hang with Black Widow

    Fight 3, they both fail. Again, we've never seen BW use a sword, and I can't recall any stealth feats that Beatrix has shown that would enable her to get the job done.
    Bears repeating:

    What HTH feats does Black Widow have that puts her above Beatrix Kiddo?

    When she took out 5-6 security guards or when she took out an old man and his henchmen? Would you put these security guards and the Russian thugs at skill levels equal to Vernita Green, Pai Mei or Bill?

    Would you say Natasha's skills surpass Pai Mei or Bill?

  9. #9
    nice to meet ya! master of read's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy1 View Post
    If you guys want me to stop using, just say so and I will.

    naw. i dont mind it. in fact, it's the first time i've seen it used in months.

  10. #10
    Rumbles Moderator Guy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-IN2 View Post
    What HTH feats does Black Widow have that puts her above Beatrix Kiddo?

    When she took out 5-6 security guards or when she took out an old man and his henchmen? Would you put these security guards and the Russian thugs at skill levels equal to Vernita Green, Pai Mei or Bill?

    Would you say Natasha's skills surpass Pai Mei or Bill?





    It's silly but effective.

    There's no proof such kung fu magic (the only explanation for such nonsensical technique) so I doubt that Natasha will discern 5 literal taps on her chest as death technique.








    Again, what feats does Natasha have that squarely puts her above Beatrix in HTH.

    Are you saying that those 5 security guards and the Russian thugs are HTH experts like Vernita Green or Bill?



    I disagree with this portion on two points:

    Point 1



    Beatrix is supporting a full grown man with one arm on her sword. Though Pai Mei is certainly balancing himself, she's still supporting his full weight. I'd peg him at about 150 lbs at least.

    Point 2



    Beatrix was buried approximately 250 feet down in solid dirt and rock. Not only did she bust of a wooden coffin using one arm, she managed to displace at least 600 lbs of dirt and rock to crawl to the surface. That's not human strength. Even Batman in the comics who was buried alive in the Black Mask saga said it was very difficult to do. And he's comic book peak human and had his gadgets to bust him out.

    Also, Beatrix has feats of doing "Xena-lite" standing super jumps that defy physics.



    I'd say their speed is roughly equal.



    Would you say Beatrix would be able to get past the security guards. Black Widow has approximately 3 feats of HTH to her name. One of them is against the security guards. You state that BW is superior in HTH skill to Beatrix. Therefore, the security guards should be superior to HTH then Beatrix, no?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5IDxINZd-o
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21mzWdfHnwg
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pohqGgEZf-s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW8eAPlRRDM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPfjd2bayVs
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgUHtXMfIcc

    I think that should do it for The Bride.
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  11. #11

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    Okay, first of all, the blade of the sword was bearly bending under Pai Mei. I don't know if you're familiar with the properties of a Chinese Jian, but the steel is very felxable. The fact that it wasn't bending like it should have implies that Pai Mei was displacing his weight himself. Not unheard of for someone who uses chi, as it's implied that he does. Also, asking if Tasha has better feats than Pai Mei is completely moot since a) He has no real combat feats of his own, save a spar against an under experienced girl, where he was clearly holding back, and B) Kiddo never beat Pai Mei in a fight.

    Yes, Tasha has better feats than Green. Other than the ones you mentioned, you're completely ignoring her feats of making Happy Hogan tap in a matter of seconds, utterly trauncing Hawkeye, using H2H (plus gadgets) to defeat Chitauri warriors, and owning the highly trained mercenaries that hijacked the SHIELD boat. Don't under play Tasha, cuz she's a badass.

    Finally, Kiddo was not buried 250 feet down. She was buried six feat down, under loose dirt that was piled on with a couple of shovles, not poured in and then compacted. Impressive, but not super human. Also, I will admit to her lifting that kid up with her sword during the C88 brawl as being solidly impressive, but it took both arms, she was clearly struggling, and that kid couldn't have weighed more than 130lbs.

    Most of Kiddo's combat feats are with a sword, her only legit H2H feats come from her fight with Green. In fact, if you watch her fight with Elle is Bud's trailer, it's clear that Elle had Kiddo's number, until she found Bud's sword. Honestly, that's not a lot to go on if you're gonna claim that she is a better H2H fighter than Tasha.
    Last edited by Nalla_The_Black; 01-14-2015 at 06:56 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalla_The_Black View Post
    Okay, first of all, the blade of the sword was bearly bending under Pai Mei. I don't know if you're familiar with the properties of a Chinese Jian, but the steel is very felxable. The fact that it wasn't bending like it should have implies that Pai Mei was displacing his weight himself. Not unheard of for someone who uses chi, as it's implied that he does. Also, asking if Tasha has better feats than Pai Mei is completely moot since a) He has no real combat feats of his own, save a spar against an under experienced girl, where he was clearly holding back, and B) Kiddo never beat Pai Mei in a fight.
    It doesn't matter if the Jian is "barely bending" or not. Kiddo is clearly supporting the man with her own strength. There's no evidence that says Pai Mei used chi. Chi is never mentioned or concretely evidenced in the Kill Bill trilogy. Therefore, we only have literal on-screen evidence that Beatrix is strong enough to support a man's weight with one arm.

    Not to mention the grave-busting feat which clearly supports her prior strength feat by having her break open a coffin and displace several hundred pounds of dirt and rock.

    Natasha has no feats of strength that compare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalla_The_Black View Post
    Yes, Tasha has better feats than Green.
    But do the security guards and Russian thugs have better feats then Beatrix?

    Are you saying that Beatrix couldn't take them down?

    Because they present 2/3 of Black Widow's feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalla_The_Black View Post
    Other than the ones you mentioned, you're completely ignoring her feats of making Happy Hogan tap in a matter of seconds,
    Happy Hogan is feat-less save for struggling to take down one security guard. He's shown as klutz and completely untrained in any sort of HTH combat. Are you using Happy Hogan as a valid feat in comparison to Beatrix going HTH with Vernita Green and Bill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalla_The_Black View Post
    utterly trauncing Hawkeye,
    Hawkeye's only HTH feat is losing to Black Widow who's other victory feats are against 6 security guards and 4 Russian thugs. And an old man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalla_The_Black View Post
    using H2H (plus gadgets) to defeat Chitauri warriors
    Natasha never went HTH with the Chitauri warriors. She shot them with her 9mm and she managed to steal one of their staffs to take two of them down with it's blaster. These are not valid HTH/martial art feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalla_The_Black View Post
    owning the highly trained mercenaries that hijacked the SHIELD boat.
    You mean she used stealth to sneak up on them and take them down before they knew she was there. Most of them she took out from behind. This shows she's good at stealth not HTH. Again, those 'highly trained mercenaries' never showed any sort of HTH feats other then Batroc who went up against Cap.



    Quote Originally Posted by Nalla_The_Black View Post
    Don't under play Tasha, cuz she's a badass.
    The only reason you seem to think Natasha is above Beatrix is because you think she's 'badass'.

    Unfortunately, that's not how Rumbles logic works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalla_The_Black View Post
    Finally, Kiddo was not buried 250 feet down. She was buried six feat down, under loose dirt that was piled on with a couple of shovles, not poured in and then compacted.
    On-screen, it's clearly stated shes about 200 feet down. In a wooden coffin. Buried underneath solid rock and dirt. Loose or compact, it's still a death sentence for anyone somewhat comic book peak human

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalla_The_Black View Post
    Impressive, but not super human.
    No, it's comic book peak human. Which is real-world superhuman.

    Black Widow hasn't demonstrated anything that remotely approaches comic book peak human strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalla_The_Black View Post
    Also, I will admit to her lifting that kid up with her sword during the C88 brawl as being solidly impressive, but it took both arms, she was clearly struggling, and that kid couldn't have weighed more than 130lbs.
    Oh, yes I've forgotten that little number. Thanks for submitting more evidence that Beatrix is much stronger then Natasha. Both arms or not, she effortlessly supported his full weight (130-50 lbs) and flung his against the wall like a soccer ball. Natasha couldn't replicate that feat. That's a feat Captain America could only replicate. And Natasha weighs 131 lbs btw. Guess that means, Beatrix can literally throw her around like a soccer ball.

    Her strength is demonstrated again in the following video:

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbAzWvTbrbA

    1:06-1:12 ; Beatrix grabs a teenage Yakuza weighing roughly 130 lbs and tosses him back at least 5 feet into 4 other Yakuza. The force of the throw is so strong the others are knocked back into the water. She does this with one arm.

    That's 5 solid feats I've listed that clearly show that Natasha doesn't hold a candle to Beatrix's strength





    Quote Originally Posted by Nalla_The_Black View Post
    Most of Kiddo's combat feats are with a sword, her only legit H2H feats come from her fight with Green. In fact, if you watch her fight with Elle is Bud's trailer, it's clear that Elle had Kiddo's number, until she found Bud's sword. Honestly, that's not a lot to go on if you're gonna claim that she is a better H2H fighter than Tasha.
    Beatrix has HTH feats with Vernita Green, Elle, and Bill. All clearly shown to be skilled, expert HTH fighters.

    Black Widow? Her only clear and visible feat is against Hawkeye. He's skilled but doesn't show anywhere near the range of martial arts like Beatrix or Elle has.

    Who else has Black Widow taken down in clear HTH feats without gadgets or stealth or alien spears?

    Security Guards

    One old man.

    And 4 Russian thugs.

    That's it.

  13. #13
    the devil's reject choptop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalla_The_Black View Post
    The eye snatch, and Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique, are silly,
    not as silly as the chair fight seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalla_The_Black View Post
    but I doubt she'd be able to pull them off on someone who's just flat out better, clearly stronger (having been able to take down Men and Aliens who are almost twice her size), and probably as fast, if not faster.
    Aliens? as in the Chitauri? with out the weapons the Chitauri had im sure they are no problem in H2H.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalla_The_Black View Post
    I don't think that Kiddo could take down Hawkeye. She shows up, and gets an exploding arrow in the face.
    Hawkeye never uses a exploding arrow in the fight with BW did he?

  14. #14
    Mighty Member Jonathan's Avatar
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    With guns Widow could win this, but hand to hand or melee weapons is a stomp for Kiddo.

  15. #15

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    No, it was not 200 feet down, or 250, or what ever number you pull out of thin air. Budd, and his friend, dug up a preexisting grave, and stuck Kiddo in it. At no point is it even implied that she was buried under 200 feet of dirt and rock. It was 6 feet, and it was just dirt. As for the "coffin", it was a plywood box. Hardly the thick, treated, hard wood used in regular coffins. What she did was impressive, but not nearly as "ZOMG Bride rulz" as you are claiming it is.

    Yes, she did go H2H with a few of the Chitauri. And she only stealthed 1 of the mercs on the boat, the next few were in pure H2H. In fact, here's all of it.

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=97hO7FlaAok

    Also, since you seem to think that Bill is some kind of God, I'll show you his only feat...

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NL7nLSSSWjw

    I also want to shine a light on the inconsistency of your argument. You claim that Tasha's feats are inferior because most of her opponents are A) Featless, or B) Puds. You do realize that Green, O-Ren, Elle, and Bill were all featless as well, right? In fact, Bill's only feat is handedly losing a 10 second sword fight. You're basing the bad assery of these people on their implied skills, not based on what they've done on screen, which is next to nothing. At least Hogan fought a guy, and beat him in about as long as it took Tasha to clear that hall way. A solid showing for a guy who isn't a super hero. Hawkeye, well, as you'll see in the above video, he took down a Chitauri in H2H, he did it again when he ran out of arrows on the roof top later in the battle, so Hawkeye has feats as well.

    As for the puds that she's fought, of course they don't have feats, They're puds, but so were the Crazy 88. Nothing but puds. In fact, most of them were clearly kids who didn't know how to sword fight. Johnny Mo and Go Go were the only member's of O-Ren's gang that showed any sort of competency. The puds that Tasha fights are either A) fully grown, tarined, private security, B) Ex Russian military, C) Alien warriors, D) Former FFL Mercs, or E) SHIELD trained Hydra agents.

    I'll reasses, Kiddo is physically stronger, sure, but Tasha is a much better fighter in pure H2H, and has multiple feats of taking down opponents who are stronger than she is. In a H2H setting, Kiddo can't compete with Tasha.
    Last edited by Nalla_The_Black; 01-14-2015 at 08:52 PM.

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