Would Classic Harley Quinn be as beloved if she had been created TODAY?

[Stazz]

(note: "Classic" here refers to the Batman Animated Series and pre- New 52 Comic book versions of the character)

Or would she be incredibly controversial by being of a depiction of a female character stuck in a cycle of dependency and abuse with the Joker?

Harley Quinn is an intelligent qualified psychiatrist who gets a prestigious job at Arkham Asylum, treating their most notorious patient, The Joker. Not only does the Joker trick her into sympathising with him, but also to throw away her career and life to become his accomplice and lover, and for years afterwards, she's in a relationship that's at best manipulative, at worst abusive. Despite several times when he's pushed her too far and she's turned on him and dumped him, her general status quo has always been to go back to him.
There are no other major characters the Joker has done this to. I don't think it's been clear if he's even tried this with other people much, but it does stand out as something rather unique with Harley.
Yes, the point of the character is that she's in an abusive relationship, and the tragedy of that is palpable...but it was a continuing unending trend with her, and despite how dark this is, Harley is treated as one of the "lighter" characters of the DCU, seemingly because of her wacky attitude(arguably one of denial) and methodology(ridiculous giant mallet weapon, gun that shoots corks, very few instances of her successfully killing anyone).
This all applies to the animated version of the character, and given the more sanitised nature of that version (Joker was never confirmed to have killed anyone until Mask of the Phantasm), when you apply this to the comics continuity it can become really disturbing. That version of the Joker is a thousand times worse, having killed countless people and sadistically tortured many more. Yet Harley's reaction to him is the same. She's even presumably fine with what he did to Barbara Gordon in The Killing Joke, sexual overtones and all.
Don't get me wrong, I love the character and found a lot to have fun with from her appearances over the years, but the increasing focus on the depiction of female characters in the media has got me thinking about these things. I guess I'm just surprised this isn't something fans seem to really think about that much, yet things like her costume redesign and the #0 issue suicide controversy ARE things that can get people upset.

[EdwardNigma]

People today whine and cry over every little thing. I am sure it would be different.

[Nite-Wing]

The whole suicide controversy was incredibly dumb but its not like Harley's domestic violence laden relationship with the joker isn't even more concerning and most people seem pretty accepting of it even when its played for laughs.

[Claude]

The whole suicide controversy was incredibly dumb but its not like Harley's domestic violence laden relationship with the joker isn't even more concerning and most people seem pretty accepting of it even when its played for laughs.

#ThisIsGonnaSoundReallyBad

The abusive relationship works when it's funny. Punch and Judy, Tom and Jerry - Harley and the Joker as living cartoons. Larger than life characters who'll always bounce back, and don't suffer pain or heartbreak.

The moment the Joker becomes Heath Ledger, or has his own face stapled to him, or Harley murders hundreds of children, or anything like that? It just doesn't work. In fact, both Snyder and Morrison have gone out of their way to point out that their respective New Jokers just don't work with Harley any more, and that something's been lost.

[t hedge coke]

#ThisIsGonnaSoundReallyBad

The abusive relationship works when it's funny. Punch and Judy, Tom and Jerry - Harley and the Joker as living cartoons. Larger than life characters who'll always bounce back, and don't suffer pain or heartbreak.

The moment the Joker becomes Heath Ledger, or has his own face stapled to him, or Harley murders hundreds of children, or anything like that? It just doesn't work. In fact, both Snyder and Morrison have gone out of their way to point out that their respective New Jokers just don't work with Harley any more, and that something's been lost.

I think The Clown at Midnight was also deliberately highlighting that the relationship should always be horrifying and brutal. Morrison doesn't really go in for "cute" abuse. Personally, while I quite like Harley on her own, when she's with Joker or pursuing him lovesick and delusional, if it doesn't at least try to make my stomach go squick, I'm disappointed. Harley is either portrayed as scary as hell or traumatically sad (while remaining delusively smiley or cartooned) for her to really work for me.

But, then, I'm not in synch with the major Harley fans. I think the one from the BoP TV show was the best simply because she wasn't getting hilariously assaulted, she wasn't following anyone, wasn't an acts-so-cute-stupid-but-we'll-keep-saying-she's-a-genius, and was frequently cheesecaked. The general run of Harley fans seem to love Mad Love or that thing where she and Ivy never wear pants and kiss every man in Arkham on a bet. Just isn't my wavelength.

[LoneNecromancer]

The general run of Harley fans seem to love Mad Love or that thing where she and Ivy never wear pants and kiss every man in Arkham on a bet. Just isn't my wavelength.

Yeah, that.

[Alan2099]

Harley works because her Joker can actually be seen as a completely uninhibited free thinker and fun guy. Sure he hurts people, but that's not his main point and can easily be glossed over. There's actually enough fun and charisma in the character that would make somebody want to be around him.

Modern Joker is a straight up horror villain. I can't buy for a second that anybody would ever even consider loving the guy. He's not charismatic. He's not fun. He's just vile, twisted, and disturbing.

[Claude]

I think The Clown at Midnight was also deliberately highlighting that the relationship should always be horrifying and brutal. Morrison doesn't really go in for "cute" abuse.

Surely it's more that the Dark And Edgy Joker that's been born - the one who's "tricked" into being because he thinks Batman's gone Dark'n'Gritty and gunwielding, complete with Watchmen references - is trying to get rid of Harley because she belonged to a time of a "softer" Joker who was capable of, in his own way, caring for her.

[mathew101281]

Harley works because her Joker can actually be seen as a completely uninhibited free thinker and fun guy. Sure he hurts people, but that's not his main point and can easily be glossed over. There's actually enough fun and charisma in the character that would make somebody want to be around him.

Modern Joker is a straight up horror villain. I can't buy for a second that anybody would ever even consider loving the guy. He's not charismatic. He's not fun. He's just vile, twisted, and disturbing.

Harley is essentially a serial killer groupie.http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal...ies/index.html

[Godlike13]

If it wasn't for BTAS i probably would not care about Harley. To this day every time i see Harley i still here that voice going "hey, Mister J".

[ABH]

All I know is that I don't really want Harley to be back with the Joker, at least as far as the New 52 goes. I like that the Joker is part of her back-story, but that's where I'd like it to stay. She's a popular character now, in her own right, and there is no good reason for her to return to an abusive Joker. At best, he can be an antagonist in her life.

That's just for the current continuity, though. If we received a new animated version of the two, where they were maybe more like a clown Bonnie & Clyde, then something like that could work, but more of the "love from one and abuse from the other", nah.

[The Red Monk]

The thing is, Harley is only ever a midway-decent character when she has that inter-play with Joker for the writers to use. Without the Joker, Harley Quinn is insanely boring.

So when people say that they would like for Harley to "move away from the Joker", they are basically saying to remove the only thing from Harley that makes her even moderately interesting as a character.

[EdwardNigma]

the thing is, harley is only ever a midway-decent character when she has that inter-play with joker for the writers to use. Without the joker, harley quinn is insanely boring.

So when people say that they would like for harley to "move away from the joker", they are basically saying to remove the only thing from harley that makes her even moderately interesting as a character.

this!!!!!!

[The World]

(note: "Classic" here refers to the Batman Animated Series and pre- New 52 Comic book versions of the character)

Or would she be incredibly controversial by being of a depiction of a female character stuck in a cycle of dependency and abuse with the Joker?

Harley Quinn is an intelligent qualified psychiatrist who gets a prestigious job at Arkham Asylum, treating their most notorious patient, The Joker. Not only does the Joker trick her into sympathising with him, but also to throw away her career and life to become his accomplice and lover, and for years afterwards, she's in a relationship that's at best manipulative, at worst abusive. Despite several times when he's pushed her too far and she's turned on him and dumped him, her general status quo has always been to go back to him.
There are no other major characters the Joker has done this to. I don't think it's been clear if he's even tried this with other people much, but it does stand out as something rather unique with Harley.
Yes, the point of the character is that she's in an abusive relationship, and the tragedy of that is palpable...but it was a continuing unending trend with her, and despite how dark this is, Harley is treated as one of the "lighter" characters of the DCU, seemingly because of her wacky attitude(arguably one of denial) and methodology(ridiculous giant mallet weapon, gun that shoots corks, very few instances of her successfully killing anyone).
This all applies to the animated version of the character, and given the more sanitised nature of that version (Joker was never confirmed to have killed anyone until Mask of the Phantasm), when you apply this to the comics continuity it can become really disturbing. That version of the Joker is a thousand times worse, having killed countless people and sadistically tortured many more. Yet Harley's reaction to him is the same. She's even presumably fine with what he did to Barbara Gordon in The Killing Joke, sexual overtones and all.
Don't get me wrong, I love the character and found a lot to have fun with from her appearances over the years, but the increasing focus on the depiction of female characters in the media has got me thinking about these things. I guess I'm just surprised this isn't something fans seem to really think about that much, yet things like her costume redesign and the #0 issue suicide controversy ARE things that can get people upset.

I doubt Harley would have ever even made it to the air today. There is a reason why they won't show that Looney Toons segment about the Papa Bear that beats his wife and son.

But yeah if it ever made it to the air I'm pretty sure it would get torn to shreds. At least the original Bruce Timm iteration.

[neonrideraryeh]

I reckon that Harley probably was "created" by the Joker somewhat early in the whole Joker thing where he was more about the clowning around, but over time Joker became worse and more of the serial killing psycho he is today. So that would mean Harley is a product of an earlier Joker in continuity before he got to this point. That can reconcile Harley's existence with the Joker in today's comics and also meshes with her "he's not the same anymore" stance she took during DotF that leads into her working as an individual character more often without the Joker around as much. She's probably really conflicted because she was conditioned to love him but he has become even more evil over time.