Should Jim Starlin continue to write Thanos?

[SickAlice]

I read those new Thanos ones and thought the stories were pretty well thought out. I don't grasp how he's " writing " Thanos though. I thought those were self contained and Thanos and his legacy were currently manned by other writers. Same with CC for that matter. Nightcrawler right? I read few issues and it seemed to drag " some " elements from other X-books into it's frame but didn't seem to contribute to nor drive the state of the X-Men in the lager MU. Or am I missing something? My assumption was that both had been assigned respective series that were canon in a way but really sort of separate in order to pay the writers back for all they gave to Marvel and in turn allow longtime fans of these writers to get a treat in. I don't really see where a person who isn't a fan couldn't just " not read it " nor where either of those series is effecting the larger picture given it's maintained by the recent sect of architects.

[THANOSRULES]

I read those new Thanos ones and thought the stories were pretty well thought out. I don't grasp how he's " writing " Thanos though. I thought those were self contained and Thanos and his legacy were currently manned by other writers. Same with CC for that matter. Nightcrawler right? I read few issues and it seemed to drag " some " elements from other X-books into it's frame but didn't seem to contribute to nor drive the state of the X-Men in the lager MU. Or am I missing something? My assumption was that both had been assigned respective series that were canon in a way but really sort of separate in order to pay the writers back for all they gave to Marvel and in turn allow longtime fans of these writers to get a treat in. I don't really see where a person who isn't a fan couldn't just " not read it " nor where either of those series is effecting the larger picture given it's maintained by the recent sect of architects.

Like "The End" was, (and I believe still was intended by Starlin to be cannon) (Though Marvel says it is Non Continuity, it basically reset everything and did nothing), Starlin has a way of writing stories that almost are irrelevant if his marvel bosses consider them non continuity.

IMO Infinity revelation was feasibly going to be Starlin's last Thanos story, so he put his toys back in the toy chest in a not so subtle way. He had bad blood w/marvel and the relationship seems contentious, so even though there were plans for the other OGNs and this Hulk stuff, I don't think they were as ironed out till it actually sold well.

No matter how you slice it, the story could be continuity...it could be. Therefore, Starlin wins despite corporate meddling ..

I think you have a good point about the "reward factor" in these stories...Stern's Captain America Corps a couple years back comes to mind. It was excellent as well, and largely ignored.

[Darrell D.]

Just because you created a character you can easily run out of new ideas and the character can be put in better hands with a new writer. If you want to own the character you don't make it for Marvel or DC put publish it yourself. Whatever or not Starlin and other writers doing the 70's knew that they wouldn't own the character in the 70's is a discussion for another place. I get that it is more authentic to read a story written by the creator however just because you made the lcharacter doesn't make you immune to criticism nor everything you do good,correct or best.

Naw. He created it, it is his idea. Not saying in the WFH companies other writers shouldn't write it, but fans thinking that the creator doesn't know how to write their creation is delusional.
Sorry, just how it is.

[Tupiaz]

Naw. He created it, it is his idea. Not saying in the WFH companies other writers shouldn't write it, but fans thinking that the creator doesn't know how to write their creation is delusional.
Sorry, just how it is.

It is not about how a character should be but what is actually a god story. At some point it is good with new and fresh eyes. For instance how many of Stan Lee characters would be what they are today if Stan Lee have kept writing them? They wouldn't have had a lot of great stories and would be dated if Stan Lee still wrote them. Just because you are the creator doesn't mean you will always make the right nor the best story.

[Darrell D.]

It is not about how a character should be but what is actually a god story. At some point it is good with new and fresh eyes. For instance how many of Stan Lee characters would be what they are today if Stan Lee have kept writing them? They wouldn't have had a lot of great stories and would be dated if Stan Lee still wrote them. Just because you are the creator doesn't mean you will always make the right nor the best story.

In a WFH environment, that happens, I agree. stan Lee isn't the best eexample, though, once he made some green, he was out ta there. I am not saying that other writers can't write the characters; ultimately, though, it is the creator's vision. Stan Lee completely co-opting Kirby's Silver Surfer is an example of a creator ideas for a character completely eradicated...which was a shitty thing to do, but, hey, that's Stan.
By the way, Thanos wasn't WFH. Starlin created the character before he worked for Marvel, which is why Marvel's lawyers had to scramble after the character showed up in the post credit teaser of The Avengers.

[Kirby Krackle]

In a WFH environment, that happens, I agree. stan Lee isn't the best eexample, though, once he made some green, he was out ta there. I am not saying that other writers can't write the characters; ultimately, though, it is the creator's vision. Stan Lee completely co-opting Kirby's Silver Surfer is an example of a creator ideas for a character completely eradicated...which was a shitty thing to do, but, hey, that's Stan.
By the way, Thanos wasn't WFH. Starlin created the character before he worked for Marvel, which is why Marvel's lawyers had to scramble after the character showed up in the post credit teaser of The Avengers.

Starlin doesn't own Thanos and never has. Since his creation, he's belonged to Marvel. What are you talking about?

[Darrell D.]

Starlin doesn't own Thanos and never has. Since his creation, he's belonged to Marvel. What are you talking about?

It wasn't created as WFH, I said nothing about ownership.

Edit: and it looks like I was wrong about Marvel getting lawyers involved..duh, me dumb. The Thanos being created before Starlin was working for Marvel I knew was right, though. Anyway, still stand by my assertion that the creator is still the final word concerning their creation, regardless if it is WFH or not.

[Mr MajestiK]

It wasn't created as WFH, I said nothing about ownership.

Edit: and it looks like I was wrong about Marvel getting lawyers involved..duh, me dumb. The Thanos being created before Starlin was working for Marvel I knew was right, though. Anyway, still stand by my assertion that the creator is still the final word concerning their creation, regardless if it is WFH or not.

You're right Darell D.

Jim Starlin did come up with the concept of Thanos before being hired by Marvel.

[CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree]

He's Starlin's own personal Marty Stu. Thanos is the strongest, smartest, most knowledgeable, most powerful, best fighter, best at everything, he's even written retcons so that Thanos has never lost save for when he subconsciously wanted to lose. He's made him "god" several times, usually finding some new power source because the old one became "tainted" by other writers. Thanos actually became interesting again under Giffen, Abnett, and Lanning, but Starlin and Hickman (pulling a Ron Marz) messed that up again. Starlin should be kept away from Thanos and Adam Warlock not only because they are his Marty Stus, but because it'll actually help these characters he adores; just like Claremont should be kept away from x-characters (especially the x-women who have collectively become Mary Sues under his pen). Greg Pak has also become too buddy buddy with characters in his runs, and it makes them less interesting.

Starlin wrote Thanos as Mary Sue character? Wut? There are a lot of instances where Starlin wrote Thanos as a humble character who was also humiliated both physically and mentally. And same goes for a lot of other writers. I mean, what the hell? The guy who had him wreck the Avengers (Hickman) also wrote him as a guy who proved to be inferior to his son Thane. That's Mary Sue?

When he absorbed the Heart of the Universe and became Omnipotent in Marvel: The End, he couldn't save the Universe despite the fact that he was, well, Omnipotent. While he overpowered every single being in the Marvel Universe, it's pretty clear that Thanos was desperate in this instance, which is pretty ironic when you think about it considering the fact that he became the God. At the end of the story, Thanos actually sacrificed himself by recreating the Marvel Universe and curing it from so called "cancer" (heroes and villains keep coming back to life).

Similar thing happened in Thanos Quest, when Thanos assembled the Infinity Gauntlet, yet Death still refused to speak to him. At the end of that story we actually see that, despite the fact that he became the most powerful beings in Marvel Universe, Death still did not accept Thanos. He actually said that he could make her do whatever he wants, but he wants her genuine love, and if he takes it by force, it's not the real thing. And at the end of the story we actually see Thanos shedding a tear, which is once again, pretty ironic considering the fact that he surpassed pretty much every being in the Marvel Universe. And this is the same issue where Thanos admitted that the Runner got the best of him based on both his dialogue and facial expression and agreed to provide the information he wanted (although Thanos defeated the Runner in this same issue, using the Time Gem at the end, so take that as you wish).

In the seventies, Thanos was killed by Adam Warlock, who turned him into stone. During his first solo series, he was zapped by Galactus.

Those are not the only instances where Thanos was either defeated and/or humiliated in some way. He was overpowered by the likes of Odin, Tyrant and the Omega Thanosi in Warlock and the Infinity Watch Vol. 1 #25, Cosmic Powers #6 and Infinity Abyss #6 respectively (although the former two had a hard time putting him down which is impressive durability showing for Thanos). All those issues plus the ones already mentioned above were written by Jim Starlin. See, there are a handful of instances when Starlin wrote Thanos as anything but "Mary Sue character". I mean, Starlin is the one who created Thanos, and he was created to be a powerful threat. In his first appearance, he wrecked Drax the Destroyer which destroyed the planet as a side effect (Iron-man Vol. 1 #55), and throughout most of his appearances he was introduced as a Teambuster, capable of wrecking Heralds like Surfer and teams like the Avengers composed of powerhouses like Hulk and Thor. And yet despite all that, Starlin had Thanos humiliated, defeated, overpowered and helpless more than once, even in an extremely ironic instances when he literally became God. Just because he wrecks popular and powerful characters, holds his own against Gods and has plan for pretty much everything does not make him a Mary Sue character. He is just a smart Teambuster. I mean, if he is Mary Sue, we might as well say that Ultron, Amazo, Mangog and other seemingly unbeatable villains who were stopped only thanks to deus ex machina are Mary Sue as well, especially because Thanos has more bad showings and these characters (not in terms of feats but in terms of introduction), as I've mentione above, all written by Starlin. And that's not even mentioning the other instances where he was depicted as nothing but a hopeless suitor to Death, showing signs of emotional weakness almost every time he is close to her and overall just looking pathetic. Or when his ultimate power was taken away from him more than once, like Cosmic Cube and the Infinity Gauntlet (although it was later confirmed by Vision and Warlock that he lost those powers, or at least the Infinity Gems only because he wanted to, but still, he knew humility and defeat).

I just want to say that, if any writer made Thanos interesting, it's Starlin. Under Starlin Thanos showed he actually has an interesting character, who is more than being powerful and evil, and actually has some human characteristics. Starlin's Thanos was actually respectful, reasonable and sometimes even heroic. He cares about Adam Warlock and Gamora even though he's unable to be more nice about it. His intelligence may be called a plot device but same can be said for Doctor Doom and Batman.

Aside from Starlin, most of Marvel writers (with a few exceptions) think Thanos is this creepy guy who wrecks and kills everybody without a second thought, like he is a cosmic satan. In other words, Marvel staff and casual fans thinks he is just Marvel's version of Darkseid, while Starlin's Thanos is a completely different character with no similarities to Darkseid aside from appearance (Thanos wasn't even based off of Darkseid but another New God called Metron and Sigmund Freud's Death Urge). While Thanos' most impressive feats can be found in Starlin's books, same can be said for instances where he has been humiliated.

[DevilBat66]

Yes. Marvel should let him write Thanos as long as he wants too. I wish they would give him the reigns of all the cosmic characters to tell the truth. His Warlock and Capt. Marvel made me a Marvel and comics fan back in the day.
I love his stuff and own almost everything he has ever done so I might be a little biased.

I'd really rather he wrote Adam Warlock though. I liked it better when Thanos was a supporting character to Adam, not the other way around.

[GrandEleven]

Ohhh a zombie thread!

Just wanted to add that "Thanos is a rip off of Darkseid" has been proven to only be true in initial appearance, and otherwise completely false in terms of character. Thanos was Starlin's idea while he was still in art classes, and when he first designed him people thought he looked like Metron (he was in the chair even then). A Marvel coworker then said "if you going to rip off the New Gods, at least make it the cool one". Thus Thanos _image_ was pulled from Darkseid ... but nothing else. The characters are nothing alike. Well ... Darkseid really doesn't have a character ... that may be why ...

[CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree]

Ohhh a zombie thread!

Just wanted to add that "Thanos is a rip off of Darkseid" has been proven to only be true in initial appearance, and otherwise completely false in terms of character. Thanos was Starlin's idea while he was still in art classes, and when he first designed him people thought he looked like Metron (he was in the chair even then). A Marvel coworker then said "if you going to rip off the New Gods, at least make it the cool one". Thus Thanos _image_ was pulled from Darkseid ... but nothing else. The characters are nothing alike. Well ... Darkseid really doesn't have a character ... that may be why ...

Both Darkseid and Thanos are great characters in different ways. The problem is that most DC Writers are crappy at using Darkseid. After Kirby, only Paul Levitz, Keith Giffen and Grant Morrison got the character right. And no one at Marvel can write Thanos well but Jim Starlin. I do think Thanos is a more complex character than Darkseid, who is basically Morgoth from the Silmarillion mixed with Big Brother from 1984 and Richard Nixon.


I Always show people this great article by the infamous Tegan O'Neil when they say ''Thanos iz Darksyde ripoff LOL!'' whenwillthehurtingstop.blogspot.com/2013/04/sir-thanos-rising-1-marvel-made-mistake.html

[CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree]

Yes. Marvel should let him write Thanos as long as he wants too. I wish they would give him the reigns of all the cosmic characters to tell the truth. His Warlock and Capt. Marvel made me a Marvel and comics fan back in the day.
I love his stuff and own almost everything he has ever done so I might be a little biased.

I'd really rather he wrote Adam Warlock though. I liked it better when Thanos was a supporting character to Adam, not the other way around.

I don't know if i would like Nova and Guardians of the Galaxy with Starlin's trippy metaphysical style. I know a few oldschool Starlin fans didn't like the violent and action packed Warhammer 40,000 approach Giffen and Dan Abnett gave to Marvel Cosmic characters with Annihilation and its sequels but i think it fits Nova and the Guardians better. Of course Starlin would still be 1000 times better than freaking Bendis though.



But i do think Carol Danvers needs a Starlin trippy metaphysical makeover. You can't have a Captain Marvel without trippy metaphysical stuff. That's the reason i liked Genis-Vell more than Monica Rambeau.

[CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree]

There is one thing everyone needs to remember in relation to Thanos and Starlin, and that is that Starlin created Thanos. Prior to the Infinity Gauntlet series, Starlin was really the only writer to use Thanos and he was used sparingly. Once the Infinity Gauntlet was released, Thanos became a mainstream villain in the Marvel Universe. Starlin had or has a particular view of what he wanted his character to be or act like and after Thanos became a mainstream Marvel villain, other writers wanted to use him as the big bad villain in their stories regardless of whether they wrote Thanos' character correctly. There are really only a few writers who understand Thanos' character and who he is, how he acts, and the manner in which he phrases his words. Starlin is the gold standard for writing Starlin's Thanos. Ron Marz, Peter David and Keith Giffen are a step below Starlin but at least they understand who Thanos is and try to stay true to Starlin's Thanos.

If I had a character that I created and spent a couple decades building into what I envisioned my character to be, only to turn around and have others mess my character up, I would try to recon those versions also so I don't blame Starlin at all for trying to return Thanos back into the Thanos he created.

Can you imagine the outrage if horrible writers turned Deadpool into a serious, no talking, Punisher knock off? Or what if Spawn was written as a Dr. Strange type magician by some writer other than MacFarlane? Or it turns out that the Spider-man most of us grew up with was revealed to be clone...errr... nevermind. The point being is, Starlin created Thanos with a certain characterization of Thanos in mind and to see others deviate from that, I'm sure that upsets him.

So, yes, I believe that Starlin should continue to write Thanos and I wish that others would look at Starlin's Thanos as a model for how they should write Thanos also.

Well said.



See this is where thanos's dc counterpart darkseid succeeds. In the end darkseid will continue on to be an evil Hitler metaphor and never give up on his goal of being the tyrant of the multiverse. Thanos being the morally grey individual he is he can't come back for me. He can't just keep being evil without ruining character development

[CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree]

And that's why I'll never understand when people whine about Starlin retconning Thanos treatments of other writers.
Why yes, if Thor would suddenly go back to being a boastfull blood knight, wouldn't you want it to be retconned? If Spider-Man would go back to being a selfish wrestler, wouldn't you want it to be retconned? etc etc

Thanos abandoned his Unviersal Conquest/Genocide plans DECADES ago. He didn't even have an army anymore.
It was all part of intensive character developement by Jim Starlin. And then other writers came along and ignored it.
I would be pissed too.

I do think Thor's character has been regressed. Although he became a whiny jobber and alcoholic instead of a boastful blood knight.

And Spider-Man was regressed when he sacrificed his marriage and future daughter to Mephisto because Quasada thought Peter Parker as a mature family man doesn't have the same appeal of oldschool Spidey. And Dan Slott did some weird stuff with the character, like having his body hijacked by Doc Ock and then becoming a super spy with an harem.

This shows that Thanos Is far from being the only victim of wacky writers/editors without a leash. But the differences between Starlin Thanos and Thuggish Thanos are more jarring to me because he's character tied with his own creator with a unique voice and character arc with a clear beginning, middle and end (multiple endings to be exact).