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  1. #76
    Lord of HyperTime! fumetti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Although it wasn't really capitalist harmony that caused all that, was it? It was Cold War insanity.
    Perhaps, but capitalism is an echo of mercantilism. By its nature, it is not harmonious in the sense that all people work together for a common purpose. They actually pit subgroups against each other for personal advantage.

    When capitalism behaves positively, the government acts more as a referee than a participant. During the Cold War, governments tended to act as participants (interjecting national goals into the system) which created the "insanity" you refer to.

  2. #77
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fumetti View Post
    Perhaps, but capitalism is an echo of mercantilism. By its nature, it is not harmonious in the sense that all people work together for a common purpose. They actually pit subgroups against each other for personal advantage.

    When capitalism behaves positively, the government acts more as a referee than a participant. During the Cold War, governments tended to act as participants (interjecting national goals into the system) which created the "insanity" you refer to.
    It would be difficult to argue the benefits of Capitalism, because there are other drawbacks that push against justice, when those that don't fit the pattern fall by the wayside and are ignored. It's a matter of the least evil done to the individual, but studying history, it's only a matter of time that relative calm and harmony is replaced with chaos again. In an idyllic world, there would be no suffering, but that wouldn't be the human experience. Philosophy tells us we must experience suffering to gain knowledge. Without suffering, there is no experience of life. But getting back to Capitalism, it is based on competition, much like the natural world. To argue it's benefits over other systems becomes to difficult to sustain.

    It is an interesting exercise to wonder without the Cold War, where would Afghanistan have developed too. It's almost like pressure of competition between the Cold War parties formed Afghanistan today, and many other spheres of existence because of philosophical lines taken. And if you expand that to the Marvel Universe, you see a struggle between the forces of conservatism and radicalism forming the world it had become. You wonder what are the forces that cause history to unfold the way it does, and why the struggle is never resolved?

    As to the subject of the thread, I think as we hear more about Secret Wars, I think the obituary is very premature as any claims as to the demise of the Marvel Universe appear to have been exaggerated.
    Last edited by jackolover; 02-03-2015 at 04:49 AM.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by 616MarvelYear is LeapYear View Post
    I will take a different view as a DC reader looking to jump ship to something new. It sounds like the jumping on point I have been looking for. I have wanted to read something different but found the Marvel Universe too complicated. Outside of the Fraction run on Iron Man from 2008 to 2012. The Marvel cinematic universe will always blow the Upcoming DC-verse away. It's a good idea as far as I am concerned, but understand the annoyance. The DC New 52 was fine for some characters but bad for others.

  4. #79
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    I once asked what was the point of all this if it all ends in 2015? Well I watched a program on cable about the 75 years of Marvel Comics, and in it Joe Quesada outlines his method for his tenure since 2000. He says it is to recreate the comics method of the 1960's the way the characters were written originally. I also asked some time ago what do the Blank black pages signify in the comic-books that showed up recently. I never got an answer, but looking back at the cover of Amazing Spiderman #36, which is a black cover alone, and in Captain America #1 from 2002, there is a black panel saying "7 months later" after 9/11, the Black Page represents the horror of 9/11.

    So what was the point of it all since 2000 when Joe Q took over? The stories got more like 1961. The Captain America series by Reiber and later Austen, examined Steve Rogers dedication and determination; The FF in Authoritative Action recalled the military confronting the FF in FF #2 in 1961; Tony Stark became SecDef of the USA, a munitions and weapons manufacturer, and, his designs were stolen by the government; the Red Skull attempted to take over the government in Avengers; and this slid into the Avengers Disassembled and Civil War and it's many aftermaths that we have today. All through this period are the themes that ran through the 1960's books, and Stans Soap box appeared next, when Marvel launched the "AR" apps where the creators talk to the reader just like Stan did in his books. The Secret Wars that is approaching in May 2015 is just another crossover of super heroes fighting each other like they did in those early days, suspicious of each other, (like in the Illuminati today), not trusting anyone, and most of all, the escalating threats getting greater and greater each time, till they confronted Galactus in the end. Today, the "Galactus" threat is the result of the Great Destroyer appearing on an Earth.

    I wonder if the Joe Quesada "Re-evolution" will be here to stay after Secret Wars ends and Battleworld becomes the home of the Marvel Universe, at least for a little while?
    Last edited by jackolover; 02-08-2015 at 04:27 AM.

  5. #80
    The One Above All 616MarvelYear is LeapYear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nathdog View Post
    I will take a different view as a DC reader looking to jump ship to something new. It sounds like the jumping on point I have been looking for. I have wanted to read something different but found the Marvel Universe too complicated. Outside of the Fraction run on Iron Man from 2008 to 2012. The Marvel cinematic universe will always blow the Upcoming DC-verse away. It's a good idea as far as I am concerned, but understand the annoyance. The DC New 52 was fine for some characters but bad for others.
    It is! Enjoy!

  6. #81
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Since 2000, under Joe Quesada, these things happened, because he wanted it done the old Marvel way. Shock and sensationalism:

    They made The Sentry, The Blue Marvel, Unseen, Marvel Boy
    They destroyed Wakanda, Atlantis, Attalan, Asgard, Annihilation,
    And a host of other reverses.

    Looking back on the MU from 2000-2015, it's just been one unlikely shock after another, which is what the Earliest Fantastic Four had been from FF #1-80, during the heyday of the Silver Age also. They had to make more and more villains and threats in the shocking Marvel way to sell the books to make it a success, and Joe did that too.

    Secret Wars won't be an end in itself but more a continuation of the shock value which goes back to the 1940's even when it started. Secret Wars isn't the start of something new. It's the continuation of the same shocking moments Stan Lee and Jack Kirby hit the audience with and continues the tradition, so we won't be seeing any end anytime soon. It's like Joe Q says, "Always it has to be something that nobody is going to expect, so spring it on everybody and wow them".

    I think the 21st Century has been a success in carrying out the wow tradition.
    Last edited by jackolover; 02-10-2015 at 04:41 AM.

  7. #82
    The One Above All 616MarvelYear is LeapYear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Since 2000, under Joe Quesada, these things happened, because he wanted it done the old Marvel way. Shock and sensationalism:

    They made The Sentry, The Blue Marvel, Unseen, Marvel Boy
    They destroyed Wakanda, Atlantis, Attalan, Asgard, Annihilation,
    And a host of other reverses.

    Looking back on the MU from 2000-2015, it's just been one unlikely shock after another, which is what the Earliest Fantastic Four had been from FF #1-80, during the heyday of the Silver Age also. They had to make more and more villains and threats in the shocking Marvel way to sell the books to make it a success, and Joe did that too.

    Secret Wars won't be an end in itself but more a continuation of the shock value which goes back to the 1940's even when it started. Secret Wars isn't the start of something new. It's the continuation of the same shocking moments Stan Lee and Jack Kirby hit the audience with and continues the tradition, so we won't be seeing any end anytime soon. It's like Joe Q says, "Always it has to be something that nobody is going to expect, so spring it on everybody and wow them".

    I think the 21st Century has been a success in carrying out the wow tradition.
    Perhaps what comes out of Secret Wars will FINALLY wow me. The MU from 2000-2015 has no 'wow' factor whatsoever

  8. #83
    Fantastic Member rdman's Avatar
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    The only good thing about killing the 616 universe or merging everything means that there will be endless possibilities.

  9. #84
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 616MarvelYear is LeapYear View Post
    Perhaps what comes out of Secret Wars will FINALLY wow me. The MU from 2000-2015 has no 'wow' factor whatsoever
    Can you honestly say after what the 1990's gave us, that what came after 2000 didn't have wow factor? The Indie's people completely transformed the industry. That and MCU, but would the MCU have gone the way of Iron Man movies and Avengers, if not for the 2000's?
    Last edited by jackolover; 02-12-2015 at 05:38 PM.

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