MARVEL UNIVERSE, 1961-2015 - An Obituary

[TresDias]

Just pointing out that the chronology of the Marvel Universe is internally always going to extend before the date at which it first started getting published in ours, so just because a story references events in 1939, doesn't mean that all Timely stories published from 1939 are in unless shown otherwise.

The fact that Marvel has made constant reference to its 75-year history of late tells me they want the date on the tombstone to read "1939." =P




On another note, yes, people need to stop complaining that Marvel is ruining their childhood. People who have been reading the comics since 1961 may not be breathing in 10 years, much less buying comics.

Superheroes are our modern myths. They belong to the culture, not to entitled complainers who won't forgive Marvel for not counting on said complainers to live forever.

[vitruvian]

The fact that Marvel has made constant reference to its 75-year history of late tells me they want the date on the tombstone to read "1939." =P




On another note, yes, people need to stop complaining that Marvel is ruining their childhood. People who have been reading the comics since 1961 may not be breathing in 10 years, much less buying comics.

Superheroes are our modern myths. They belong to the culture, not to entitled complainers who won't forgive Marvel for not counting on said complainers to live forever.

I've only been reading since the early 70s myself, but a lot of that was reprints and collections of the earlier stuff going back to the 60s and even some of the Golden Age stuff (although the latter more on the DC side, since they tended to be better about reprinting GA stuff), so those stories are relevant to me as well. People aren't restricted to reading and enjoying things published since they were born, you realize. Even so, I've got a good twenty years before retirement, let alone planning to die, junior.... and even those readers approaching retirement and senescence are still readers.

Anyway, Marvel isn't ruining my childhood, I've got my back issues handy in the garage any time I want to go back to them. However, to the extent they continue to market their ongoing stories as being an extension of the past continuity, whether it starts in 1961 or 1939, they need to follow through and actually make it so. Of course, if they explicitly reboot so that none of the past continuity necessarily matters, they're off the hook for that, but so far they haven't announced any such thing - it appears that the 616 characters on Battleworld will remember all of the same 616 history, even if it's less relevant in their new setting.

[TresDias]

Oh, I'm not saying the books can't still be for everyone, nor am I saying newer readers can't go back and enjoy older stuff (the Mutant Massacre was published two months after I was born, so I had a lot of catching up to do when I started paying attention around 1991) -- but that's the point: They can be for everyone.

A far too large portion of comic fans (at least of those who post online) are elitist and act like these snotty-nosed kids with their Rocket Raccoon toys have no fucking business in "my" comics. And it's annoying.

You're cool, obviously, but I dare say you're in a minority. You just kind of go with the flow and try to appreciate what each new comic generation (i.e. each decade, really) brings into the fold instead of expecting an entire market to cater to you and crying mutiny and betrayal when it doesn't. Wish we saw more of your attitude.

[vitruvian]

Oh, I'm not saying the books can't still be for everyone, nor am I saying newer readers can't go back and enjoy older stuff (the Mutant Massacre was published two months after I was born, so I had a lot of catching up to do) -- but that's the point: They can be for everyone.

A far too large portion of comic fans (at least of those who post online) are elitist and act like these snotty-nosed kids with their Rocket Raccoon toys have no fucking business in "my" comics. And it's annoying.

You're cool, obviously, but I dare say you're in a minority. You just kind of go with the flow and try to appreciate what each new comic generarion brings into the fold instead of expecting an entire market to cater to you and crying mutiny and betrayal when it doesn't. Wish we saw more of your attitude.

I like when they do new and different things, honestly, I just demand that they do them well or I stop buying stuff.

[TresDias]

Same here. Like when "One More Day" happened, I didn't hate it because it broke up Pete and MJ (though, yeah, that would have made me sad either way -- they had been together since I had been reading comics).

I hated it because it was hamfisted editorial mandate that was accomplished via Pete shirking the motto he had lived by his entire publication life in making a deal with the literal devil, a decision he had no right to make since it affected other people's lives -- all ostensibly in order to save an old lady who could feasibly pass any day anyway, but really so he could avoid taking responsibility for the fact that his own choices led to her predicament.

It was just ill-conceived, terribly written, a bad fit for the character thematically, a sin he has yet to be redeemed for, etc. And it drove me away from Marvel for a few years.

Instead of making that mess, they could have employed the magical arts of divorce (which real people can identity with) and had the two separate for a myriad of plausible reasons. Even on good terms. Maybe even as friends. No, though, that wasn't comic booky enough for Joey Q. We had to get unprecedented character derailment.

I still can't bring myself to give a **** about Pete's stories since that happened, though I will get the "Renew Your Vows" tie-in in the hopes it fixes that crap.

[Majin_O.A.W.]

Considering how little they reference it at all now, and that even when they do they tend not to term it that way (this week's Mighty Avengers being an exception), I doubt they'll feel the need to bother doing so explicitly.

And drug use implies a decision to take a drug, which being exposed to the drug via an explosion is definitely not. If you are standing downwind when somebody throws a bunch of pot on a bonfire, that wouldn't make you a drug user, just somebody who was exposed to marijuana. Likewise, Cap has no drug use to retcon, just drug exposure. If there had ever been a scene where he voluntarily chose to take or expose himself to more of the drug, you would have a point, but since there wasn't, you don't. Take this reboot as an opportunity to drop it once and for all.

Thanks for clearing this up Vitruvian. I'm hoping that the retcon will take away that tainted part of Cap's past, when he was high of the narcotic and brutalized his fellow heroes. Such a low point in the character's history and the fact that it still gets referenced to this day shows you the impact it has.

But my question is, once Secret Wars takes place, will those stories of the past still count? I know with OMD, Quesada mentioned that those stories still happened and they counted, but noted that Peter and MJ were never married. Do you forsee something like this happening? What are your thoughts?

[andersfurby]

Did you not read any of today's news? "Secret Wars" being a reboot is confirmed.

No it was not. It was said that the Marvel Universe ends as we know it with Secret Wars. They also said that the Marvel Universe coming out of it will be a mash up of survivors from Secret Wars (The pizza topping thing). This basically means that all the characters that make it out of Secret Wars into the new Marvel Universe (Most of 616 plus Miles Morales, at least), will exist, with their history intact. A reboot means that they would be restarted, whole new history. This is not the case, ergo not a reboot. Either you misunderstood the announcement or you do not comprehend the meaning of the word Reboot...

my question is, once Secret Wars takes place, will those stories of the past still count? I know with OMD, Quesada mentioned that those stories still happened and they counted, but noted that Peter and MJ were never married. Do you forsee something like this happening? What are your thoughts?

See what I said above, from what they announced, all the history exists as we know it. Past stories will not be made irrelevant.

[TresDias]

"Reboot" doesn't denote only a reset of everything like nothing has ever happened. Again, "Crisis On Infinite Earths" was a reboot, but it didn't quite do what you're speaking of.

That's why some people use terms like "soft reboot" and "hard reboot." Establishing a new universe with a semi-new continuity is what we're talking about here -- that's still a reboot.

[andersfurby]

"Reboot" doesn't denote only a reset of everything like nothing has ever happened. Again, "Crisis On Infinite Earths" was a reboot, but it didn't quite do what you're speaking of.

That's why some people use terms like "soft reboot" and "hard reboot." Establishing a new universe with a semi-new continuity is what we're talking about here -- that's still a reboot.

It's not a new continuity though. It's all the cities in the world being destroyed and the survivors are evacuated to a city and having to live together. No history is being changed. Crisis had lots of changes made to continuity, which is why it's considered a form of reboot. Additionally, people are using the term reboot so wrongly. Saying that everyone else uses it for the wrong reason is not an excuse for using the term wrongly.....

This is not a soft or hard reboot. Established continuity and canon is not being changed....

[TresDias]

The setting itself is getting a makeover. It is being rebooted even if nothing else is, likely with a hodgepodge (rebooted) civilian population.

And let's be real. They will be returning to an Earth-based setting, if not by the end of this event, then in the relatively near future. They will then have to work out which universes' histories make the cut and which do not. Inevitably, they will default to a history much like our own, with a civilian populace much like our own.

I'm really not interested in splitting semantic hairs further than this, by the way.

This is being structured like a reboot, even if there aren't currently any changes to history taking place, and it will serve the function of a reboot for the company. If you would like to posit a different, more fitting term that has comparable lexical value (i.e. one that no one feels duty bound to step up and debate about while still successfully communicating without elaboration the intended idea when saying "reboot"), be my guest.

[GallowGlass]

Might be wise if we just actually wait to see what happens instead of freaking out about something we've imagined and then blaming people for it. Just a thought.

[andersfurby]

The setting itself is getting a makeover. It is being rebooted even if nothing else is, likely with a hodgepodge (rebooted) civilian population.

And let's be real. They will be returning to an Earth-based setting, if not by the end of this event, then in the relatively near future. They will then have to work out which universes' histories make the cut and which do not. Inevitably, they will default to a history much like our own, with a civilian populace much like our own.

I'm really not interested in splitting semantic hairs further than this, by the way.

This is being structured like a reboot, even if there aren't currently any changes to history taking place, and it will serve the function of a reboot for the company. If you would like to posit a different, more fitting term that has comparable lexical value (i.e. one that no one feels duty bound to step up and debate about while still successfully communicating without elaboration the intended idea when saying "reboot"), be my guest.

You miss the point. After Battleworld, all characters remain with their history intact. It's not a reboot. It's simply a way to merge the Ultimate and 616 universes. There is no actual reboot element here. Just people really trying to stretch the definition paper thin as an excuse to moan.

There's no splitting hairs. You're just wrong by calling it a reboot, as it doesn't fit the definition.

I would simply call it an event that's what it is, it is being structured like an event, like AvX, Civil War, etc. No need to complicate it by trying to poorly stretch the cry of reboot inappropriately. Calling it a reboot to people just causes confusion , misunderstanding and panic. If it was a reboot, then why are there new series starting now and in the next couple of months? Ones that don't come out of secret wars. Like, Ant-Man last month.

[vitruvian]

Same here. Like when "One More Day" happened, I didn't hate it because it broke up Pete and MJ (though, yeah, that would have made me sad either way -- they had been together since I had been reading comics).

I hated it because it was hamfisted editorial mandate that was accomplished via Pete shirking the motto he had lived by his entire publication life in making a deal with the literal devil, a decision he had no right to make since it affected other people's lives -- all ostensibly in order to save an old lady who could feasibly pass any day anyway, but really so he could avoid taking responsibility for the fact that his own choices led to her predicament.

It was just ill-conceived, terribly written, a bad fit for the character thematically, a sin he has yet to be redeemed for, etc. And it drove me away from Marvel for a few years.

Instead of making that mess, they could have employed the magical arts of divorce (which real people can identity with) and had the two separate for a myriad of plausible reasons. Even on good terms. Maybe even as friends. No, though, that wasn't comic booky enough for Joey Q. We had to get unprecedented character derailment.

I still can't bring myself to give a **** about Pete's stories since that happened, though I will get the "Renew Your Vows" tie-in in the hopes it fixes that crap.

I'm a little different... I didn't waste my money on any of One More Day once I saw the first issue of it and got a sense of what it was going to be like. My suspicions were confirmed by reviews and synopses here and elsewhere, even before the wiki entries went up.

However, I did pick up quite the run of Brand New Day stories in the period following that, because I knew I liked Slott's writing in general and chose to just regard it as a new continuity to read about. In other words, I hated the way they got rid of the marriage, I was able to happily read stories set in the world where Peter was never married.

And that's even though I do entirely prefer the marriage, and regard Jim Butcher's The Darkest Hours as one of the best takes on Peter Parker and his ethos ever written.

Darn, now I want them to arrange a Spider-Man/Harry Dresden story.

[vitruvian]

No it was not. It was said that the Marvel Universe ends as we know it with Secret Wars. They also said that the Marvel Universe coming out of it will be a mash up of survivors from Secret Wars (The pizza topping thing). This basically means that all the characters that make it out of Secret Wars into the new Marvel Universe (Most of 616 plus Miles Morales, at least), will exist, with their history intact. A reboot means that they would be restarted, whole new history. This is not the case, ergo not a reboot. Either you misunderstood the announcement or you do not comprehend the meaning of the word Reboot...



See what I said above, from what they announced, all the history exists as we know it. Past stories will not be made irrelevant.

While the past stories may still be 'in continuity', there is a sense in which they will still be less relevant, though... if all of this is correct, and the future of the Marvel Universe is this mash up of people and places from different realities and histories, but without those histories being merged and reconciled in any way (even as badly as was done at DC in the aftermath of Crisis), you're right, it won't be a reboot.

What it will be is a confusing mess where the 616 continuity is just one of dozens of histories shared by a segment of the population, and if you want a version of a character who had X happen differently in his or her past, you can probably lay your hands on one, and you'll never know whether villain Y is actually the one that hero Z has a grudge against, or an entirely different guy... so while everything in 50+ years of Marvel may still have happened, so has a whole bunch of stuff that may make the 616 history unimportant. The overuse of the evil twin trope that this setting will make easy alone... yowch.

[vitruvian]

You miss the point. After Battleworld, all characters remain with their history intact. It's not a reboot. It's simply a way to merge the Ultimate and 616 universes. There is no actual reboot element here. Just people really trying to stretch the definition paper thin as an excuse to moan.

Not just those alone, there are a lot of realities involved here.

The Ultimate U alone will be interesting, though. You realize we're back to a public identity for Spider-Man, for Peter Parker anyway, since everybody on Earth-1610, New Yorkers especially, knows that Peter Parker was Spider-Man, and people will talk.