Doctor Doom Appreciation

[Iron Maiden]

Heh.....I really think Fem-Loki and Doom made a great couple. That was a fun little "between the panels" story to show them getting acquainted. Not many knew that Loki had taken the body of spoilers:

Sif

end of spoilers when JMS relaunched Thor.

Englehart does have his fans and for some reason his Avengers run is well liked. But Mantis was an annoying character that was even loathed among Marvel staffers IIRC from Sean Howe's "Marvel Comics: The Untold Story". He also made Crystal totally unlikable, cheated on Pietro with a real estate salesman and flirted around with the Dane Whitman too. I also think he did the story with Wanda's magical babies and there's a whole can of worms tied up with that.

But like you Miss F, I thought his "Jonathan Harkness" work on the FF with Aron the Rouge Watcher is probably his worst work. There was a ridiculous story where Doom and Kristoff Doom took turns blowing up things among other lowlights like the Crystal/Sue catfight.

[Iron Maiden]

As part of Marvel's 75th Anniversary spotlights, their website made a list of the Top 10 Silver Age Villains. I thought Galactus or Green Goblin might eek out a spot as the #1 but our Lord of Latveria took his rightful position at the top of the list. I like that they used some classic Jack Kirby art for the article.

[Rheged]

Did anyone pick up Ultimate FF 2 this week? I got to my LCBS late and it was sold out.

[Rheged]

As part of Marvel's 75th Anniversary spotlights, their website made a list of the Top 10 Silver Age Villains. I thought Galactus or Green Goblin might eek out a spot as the #1 but our Lord of Latveria took his rightful position at the top of the list. I like that they used some classic Jack Kirby art for the article.

Yay!!

I'm glad Marvel got that right. That sounds like the Psych Ward write up though. I wish they'd used something else or balanced the psycho analysis with a more appreciative take.

[Rheged]

And the John who was with them was not Johnny Storm, but John Jameson the son of Jonah as co-pilot Johnny appeared instead in Iron Man: HoM where he was a player in those mecha battle arenas with Anthony and Howard Stark. I don't recall that Johnny had any reaction to the death of his sister.

Wow. I thought Wanda remade things in a manner to make everyone happy ... or to make the HoM work. She either didn't like the FF or they were a real threat to making HoM possible.

Thanks, I forgot about JJJ's son being on that rocket trip. Since I didn't get all the HoM tie ins (just Son of M, which I liked) I didn't know Johnny did show up somewhere else. The other problem with HoM which is kind of eye rolling to me is how everyone got the memories tinkered with. Most people don't even know it happened, although I think it was mentioned in one comic that Osborn claimed the government has a file on HoM, and if I recall didn't only those in the immediate presence of Charles Xavier & Doctor Strange were protected? And the part about the dead coming back to life (the original Valeria, Doom's mother and others) also made me skeptical about what HoM was. Was it an alternate reality or Wanda being able to change the universe period. The latter I always found to be highly suspect and why I never bother much about stories that came out of the X titles that claimed millions of mutants were killed across all the multiverses. That should not have happened.... But that's another argument that never seems to go away.

An interesting question. I remember when I first read it, wondering if folks were just dreaming, like in the Matrix.

TBH, I liked Wanda a lot more when she wasn't a reality warper and so uber powerful. Ditto Franklin.

Maybe I just don't care for reality warpers. LOL!

[Rheged]

Didn't Luke Cage kick Doom's ass and collect the 500 bucks Doom owed him?

True story.

The late Dwayne McDuffie took care of that in his Damage Control. He said he always hated that story and I agree with McDuffie. and to go farther I don't think I ever came across a story done by Steve Englehart that I liked, particularly his run on Fantastic Four and SVTU.

the Comics Should be Good blog on the front page has featured that story several times and finally I commented to Brian Cronin (the columnist) that he had to play fair and post about Dwayne McDuffie's story in Damage Control that refutes the idea that Doom was a dead beat that skipped out on this debts.

Here is the link to his blog entry that includes the Damage Control story.

here is the entry where I commented on the story popping up and then after my comment, you will see Dwayne McDuffie's...

My comment: I wonder if Dwayne McDuffie had this story in mind in a later Damage Control story where once again, Doom apparently skips out on a bill from the company. It turns out that one of his minions pocketed the money instead and Doom paid up. I can’t recall if he killed the guy or not for though

I think the doorman lied and kept the $200 bucks.

Dwayne McDuffie: "My Damage Control story ” When Doom Defaults!” was a direct response to this one, which I hated as a child. Doom fires his assistant, who is relieved that he wasn’t killed"

That exchange between you and McDuffie is beyond cool!

I have enjoyed some Englehart books, Dr. Strange, especially, and of course the Avengers Defenders War.

All the more reason McDuffie will always be sorely missed...I say it A LOT: His run on Fantastic Four should have been longer than it was. Among other things, he had an utmost brilliant take on the Reed/Doom rivalry, as gorgeously written and illustrated in FF Special #1/"My Dinner With Doom", which I hold to honestly be the last truly GREAT FF story ever written thus far.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find any scans from that one-shot...just the cover, and that doesn't feature Doom, dagnabit! So here's a goody for not just Doom minions, but also worshipers of Loki, to make up for that:





There was once a time where I was interested in Master of Kung-Fu and Coyote (A series in Marvel's Epic line that I once thought was intriguing between digging the #1 cover since first seeing it in my Marvel history coffee table book, and its obvious utilization of Southwestern/Native American folklore), but that went by the wayside when I finally found out about Englehart thinking the Richards were boring (seriously), and to the point where if he had his way, Reed, Sue, and Franklin would have permanently been retired from appearing in the FF title/possibly the MU in general. That Aron the Rogue Watcher dream mess that ended Englehart's run (don't let the John Harkness pseudonym fool you)? Pure and simply Englehart showing his butt about being forced by Marvel (as well as the fans) to bring back the Richards and in turn his being ridden out of FF on a rail...

I remember you posting that in the old forums. I had no idea. And yes, I have to agree, if a writer doesn't want to write half the FF, that's never a good sign.

Heh.....I really think Fem-Loki and Doom made a great couple. That was a fun little "between the panels" story to show them getting acquainted. Not many knew that Loki had taken the body of spoilers:

Sif

end of spoilers when JMS relaunched Thor.

Englehart does have his fans and for some reason his Avengers run is well liked. But Mantis was an annoying character that was even loathed among Marvel staffers IIRC from Sean Howe's "Marvel Comics: The Untold Story". He also made Crystal totally unlikable, cheated on Pietro with a real estate salesman and flirted around with the Dane Whitman too. I also think he did the story with Wanda's magical babies and there's a whole can of worms tied up with that.

But like you Miss F, I thought his "Jonathan Harkness" work on the FF with Aron the Rouge Watcher is probably his worst work. There was a ridiculous story where Doom and Kristoff Doom took turns blowing up things among other lowlights like the Crystal/Sue catfight.

I do like seeing Loki and Doom together ... FemLoki ... well, I guess it depended on who was drawing her. Sometimes she look like Marilyn Manson.

[Iron Maiden]

Did anyone pick up Ultimate FF 2 this week? I got to my LCBS late and it was sold out.

Yes I was able to get a copy. The art as you know is the same as last time. It lists Tom Grummet as doing layouts and Mario Guevara as doing pencils and 4 different inkers! Scott Hanna was listed as one of them and he is IMO one of the better ones.

From the way Joshua Hale Fialkov writes Namor and van Damme I could easily see him making the transition into writing the MU version of them if they ever decided to revive SVTU. I hope you can find a copy. I have a feeling with these new comics the shops only over order on the first issues and then cut back on their orders. It seems new titles have a tougher time catching on these days.

Yay!!

I'm glad Marvel got that right. That sounds like the Psych Ward write up though. I wish they'd used something else or balanced the psycho analysis with a more appreciative take.

I wonder who it is that Marvel gets to write these. None of the names looked familiar as a went through all 5 parts of the write up. I think the only Psyche Ward write up Doom had was the one from around the time of DoomWar because it does mention the upcoming mini at the end. I wish this writer was more appreciative also but I do tend to agree with some of it. I have always thought that due to the circumstances of his early years in spent as part of a transient, poverty-striken little band that constantly was reminded of their lowly status I find it very plausible that Doom would have these suppressed feelings of inferiority. IMO this is why his outward behavior goes into the opposite direction...he's covering up those feelings. I don't think of it as linked to any narcissism. But I guess that is because I mostly don't think of narcissism in the clinical sense. I think of those celebrity types that are wrapped up in their own physical appearance and really do think they are better than those around them. I think in his darkest solitary moments of introspection Doom has some doubts about that. But he quickly casts them aside.

[Master Planner]

As part of Marvel's 75th Anniversary spotlights, their website made a list of the Top 10 Silver Age Villains. I thought Galactus or Green Goblin might eek out a spot as the #1 but our Lord of Latveria took his rightful position at the top of the list. I like that they used some classic Jack Kirby art for the article.

No surprise here.While Dr Doom is a classic villain,i think no one could rival the evil mania and the villainous fun of Silver Age Doom.He was fun in his grandiose villainy and complex enough with his won sense of honor.

[Rheged]

Yes I was able to get a copy. The art as you know is the same as last time. It lists Tom Grummet as doing layouts and Mario Guevara as doing pencils and 4 different inkers! Scott Hanna was listed as one of them and he is IMO one of the better ones.

From the way Joshua Hale Fialkov writes Namor and van Damme I could easily see him making the transition into writing the MU version of them if they ever decided to revive SVTU. I hope you can find a copy. I have a feeling with these new comics the shops only over order on the first issues and then cut back on their orders. It seems new titles have a tougher time catching on these days.

That sounds promising on the writing. So, he didn't go with Millar's Ultimate Namor as a criminal take? You don't have to spoil it, but did we get an explanation for why Van Damme isn't dead?

On the art front ... that sounds terrible. That's never a good sign. Either someone fell behind on the schedule or Marvel really doesn't care. I didn't think Grummett was doing layouts for the first issue. Will have to go back and check.

I'm sure I'll pick it up. I'm going to my old comic store hopefully next week, and if I don't get it there, I'll order it.

I wonder who it is that Marvel gets to write these. None of the names looked familiar as a went through all 5 parts of the write up. I think the only Psyche Ward write up Doom had was the one from around the time of DoomWar because it does mention the upcoming mini at the end. I wish this writer was more appreciative also but I do tend to agree with some of it. I have always thought that due to the circumstances of his early years in spent as part of a transient, poverty-striken little band that constantly was reminded of their lowly status I find it very plausible that Doom would have these suppressed feelings of inferiority. IMO this is why his outward behavior goes into the opposite direction...he's covering up those feelings. I don't think if it as linked to any narcissism. But I guess that is because I mostly think of narcissism in the clinical sense. I think of those celebrity types that are wrapped up in their own physical appearance and really do think they are better than those around them. I think in his darkest solitary moments of introspection Doom has some doubts about that. But he quickly casts them aside.

Well, I agree wholeheartedly with this part:

“Shakespearean in scope and grandeur, when Victor Von Doom arrived on the scene, he signaled that the villain game has completely and irrevocably changed.

It's hard for me to associate inferiority, suppressed or otherwise, with Doom. That said, I definitely see what you are talking about. I think it goes a way towards explaining his relationship with Namor.

Stevens mentions Doom is complex, but doesn't mention a few things that make him so, like his unstable childhood, his relationship with his mother, or his unique moral code. But then again, it is a villain countdown. ;p

I'm guessing Marvel has someone in charge of providing website content, and a pool of article writers / essayists -- some from the Handbook or the Marvel wiki -- who write these things. I know I've seen Andrew Wheeler write some for Namor, and he also writes for Comic Alliance. Brett White is another familiar name. And Tim Stevens writes the Psych Ward, though, looking it up, this wasn't lifted from that. It's a new 'evaluation.'

[Iron Maiden]

That sounds promising on the writing. So, he didn't go with Millar's Ultimate Namor as a criminal take? You don't have to spoil it, but did we get an explanation for why Van Damme isn't dead?

On the art front ... that sounds terrible. That's never a good sign. Either someone fell behind on the schedule or Marvel really doesn't care. I didn't think Grummett was doing layouts for the first issue. Will have to go back and check.

I'm sure I'll pick it up. I'm going to my old comic store hopefully next week, and if I don't get it there, I'll order it.

It seems like Namor is at least not a very welcome presence to the other Atlanteans at least. A couple of times, Van Damme's identitity did come into question, like the preview panel where Namor says he watched Ben kill him. Van Damme later tells Iron Man that there was an imposter and his reason for saying so is pretty valid. I wonder if they will just drop the issue after this and never attempt to explain who the imposter was, which I think would be needlessly sidetracking things. I wonder if Mary Storm might still be alive though.

Ulitmate Doom had some pretty weird powers like the poisoned quills that he could shoot out from his arms and toxic breath. Warren Ellis must have been in a strange mood when he came up with those.

It's hard for me to associate inferiority, suppressed or otherwise, with Doom. That said, I definitely see what you are talking about. I think it goes a way towards explaining his relationship with Namor.

Stevens mentions Doom is complex, but doesn't mention a few things that make him so, like his unstable childhood, his relationship with his mother, or his unique moral code. But then again, it is a villain countdown. ;p

As you said, the quote about Shakepearean grandeur is appropriate at least before he goes off into the psychoanalysis. Another reason why I think of that suppressed feelings of inferiority goes back to the accident in college. It was a very crushing blow and he after getting expelled he goes off the grid for quite a while. One of my favorite parts of Books of Doom is the time he spent in relative seclusion in Eastern Europe. Between that and his time spent in Tibet he was probably gone at least 5 years or at least long enough for Reed to get prematurely gray hair. He was gone long enough for most to assume he died. That What If where he keeps the power of the Beyonder has these captions where they give Doom a timeline for every event was pretty interesting. I think he doesn't become "Doctor Doom" until he is around 30 and that is probably true in the MU also. Even in Books of Doom where he is reunited with Valeria he is still reluctant to return to Latveria with her, probably because of his feelings a failure and wanting to have a more triumphant return.

[DoomScribe]

Another thing I dislike about these flip little descriptions and incomplete analyses like we see in the villains summary (and Doom is rightfully #1 I must add), is that they very rarely mention that Doom has no superpowers. Unless you count his intellect, which Reed Richards doesn't get credit for a super-power intellect, Doom shouldn't either, Doom has no powers other than the ones he created himself. His armor, even his magical abilities have always been credited to his hard work and study. To me that speaks volumes that other writers barely acknowledge. So he has anger issues (so does Bruce Banner), so he's a little arrogant (Namor, Magneto), maybe he has a slight twinge of self-doubt every blue moon or so ....


Doom is nothing if not grandiose, a magnificent, self-made man.
nuff said.

[Iron Maiden]

Very good points, DS. Is that from PAD's Incredible Hulk? I think those are my favorite aspects of Doom's character and that is the lack of superpowers and he is not a mutant. The only thing you could say is that he always had a latent talent for the mystic arts. I always wondered if he would have made a far more powerful Sorcerer Supreme had things gone differently. It is the one thing that he has over Stephen Strange, who also had been a very flawed individual. Selfish and arrongant, he was more concerned about making money than being a true healer. It's too bad they've had so few stories together since there are some similarities there.

[Sprite]

I'll forever be torn between Doom and Magneto as my overall favorite Marvel villain, but you can't deny how outright fun and how human Doom is as a character.

[Master Planner]

Αs Doomscribe said,one of the most intriguing aspects of Doom is that the ultimate self-made man..and one of the most greedy human beings.But not greed of wealth,but greed for perfection.Doom's will and desire to be the top being lead him to many incredible achievements for a normal human being.

[DoomScribe]

Very good points, DS. Is that from PAD's Incredible Hulk?

That is from Superman Spiderman -