Doctor Doom Appreciation

[Doom Answers to No Master]

All these Doom 2099 posts make me a little sad. Doom 2099 is really good. We are weirdly enough in the perfect political climate for this book to make a triumphant comeback and have something to say. The whole 2099 line even as Spider-man 2099 proved there is still some interest in it.

Doom 2099 was beyond brilliant...especially "One Nation Under Doom"...seeing Doom put the members of the "Corporate" structure on notice, recreating SHIELD with the Punisher of 2099 as his "Minister of Punishment" the only thing I hated was seeing Herod bring Doom down by liquifying the Latverian citizenry and destroying the White House ala Independence Day...

[Iron Maiden]

Doom 2099 was beyond brilliant...especially "One Nation Under Doom"...seeing Doom put the members of the "Corporate" structure on notice, recreating SHIELD with the Punisher of 2099 as his "Minister of Punishment" the only thing I hated was seeing Herod bring Doom down by liquifying the Latverian citizenry and destroying the White House ala Independence Day...

I know....but I loved the sequence where Doom, his armor damaged, escaped the pursuing army by shooting his way out of the city with a gun he took from one of soldiers

They have it posted on scansdaily

[Abe]

I know....but I loved the sequence where Doom, his armor damaged, escaped the pursuing army by shooting his way out of the city with a gun he took from one of soldiers

They have it posted on scansdaily

Oh my god emperor! This is beyond cool!

Maybe there will be joy again someday for me too... if Marvel decides to release a Doom 2099 omnibus...

[Doom Answers to No Master]

I know....but I loved the sequence where Doom, his armor damaged, escaped the pursuing army by shooting his way out of the city with a gun he took from one of soldiers

They have it posted on scansdaily

That is a great moment...also love Herod's painful punishment....Doom destroys Herod's "Red House" and destroys the fake Captain America...
he shoots Morphine Summers with an inhibitor spike...he has attached some nanobots to Herod's spine that will cause him constant harm for the rest of his days...if I remember correctly, Doom says "You will never forget me again, Herod"

[Abe]

A quite nice couple of pages about Kirby's time machines in the spring edition of the Jack Kirby Collector! Nothing extraordinary, but a lot of praising to some great panels from FF #5 and FF #19.

[KingsLeadHat]

For the love of god do we really need another Doom against FF story? Do we really need it that badly? I ask that because it feels like every run we have another fight between Victor and the FF. It really is a shame if he is going to get reverted because not only have we been there before but it's so constant. I have faith in Slott to use new villains and villains we haven't seen in years. I get that Doctor Doom is a big name but he's not only outgrown the FF, he's arguably too good to be in the book anymore. We can get decades of mileage out of heroic Doom, why should he revert now besides iconography? Are writers really so scared of their own abilities they can only rely on one villain?

You can evolve Doom, and add layers, without going the Claremont/Magneto* route and reform him. Frankly, haven't we had far too much villain reform over the last decade or so? What's the point of having the hero/villain dynamic if all the best villains turn out to be heroes in the end? The tragedy of Doom is that he would easily be the worlds greatest hero if he wasn't, ultimately, evil. I don't ever want to actually see that outside of a What If? (there was an excellent issue that told this story back in the 80's). I get it: Doom is the most interesting FF universe character and writers love to make him a "good guy" so they can write him more. Still, he's much more interesting as a romantic villain with a twisted sense of honor.

I think the key is to expand him beyond the scope of the FF, but keep him as a villain. Also, Doom is a villain relative to the goodness of the FF. You could still tell stories of Doom as a stand in for a heroic protagonist when facing an even greater evil. I'm thinking of how he aided the heroes in Starlin's Infinity trilogy.

*I like Claremont's evolution of Magneto (his concentration camp background, etc.) up until the point he joined the X-Men. For me, that's kind of the end of the story. Xavier wins.

[Iron Maiden]

I agree with pretty much all of that, which I guess is why I frequently get nostalgic for Doom 2099 which was a near perfect balance of what you describe. It was like he had traveled to a window in time that was the optimal perfect environment for him to succeed.

[Fanto.mx]

But Doom's not evil. Egotistical, pragmatic, and a bit lacking in imagination because he can't really think outside of his own purview because he refuses to even nominally depend on anyone else, but not evil. That was the lesson of Secret Wars 2015. There are a lot of really villainous things in Secret Wars, but they all stem from the above.

Well, that and, of course, he lets his hatred of Reed rule a lot of what he does. But he's trying. Reed coming back would almost certainly put an end to that, as he's working on having accepted help (and defeat), but having a living reminder of his need/acceptance of help and having been defeated at his height will bring it crashing down.

I definitely don't think he needs to be the villain to be interesting. For the entirety of the Future Foundation storyline, he was super interesting, and I would say more interesting than the mustache twirling maniac he often ended up being portrayed as, but he wasn't the villain of that story.

I do wish he wasn't being made "iconic" (read: being completely reverted) in the upcoming FF relaunch. There's just so much interesting story potential in him and Reed being tacitly on the same side. Reed's recent history being one of being villainously pragmatic in the face of extreme circumstances and Doom's recent history being a desperate but practicable resistance to immoral pragmatism would make for a really fruitful dynamic, story-wise.

[Iron Maiden]

Doing some catch up.....

Quite interesting assessment of Victor and Reed. Doesn't it seem like lately a Venn diagram of their character traits is starting to have a larger area of intersection? Reed tinkering with Victor's memories is pretty Doom-ish.

Over the years the more interesting and less "iconic" (or as you say maniacal) versions of Doom occurred outside of the Fantastic Four and I don't think that it is coincidence. There was an old interview, which has disappeared from the internet search engines had an interview with Warren Ellis that among other topics dealt with his Doom 2099. IIRC he take on the character was that of a morally damaged revolutionary. I think that's the part I liked most about Doom 2009 is that it revisited that part of his back story where Doom is still a young man in Latveria , probably around 18 or thereabouts, and he is leading a successful though small resistance against the aristocracy.

This abandonment or abdication of the throne of Latveria that has been part of his Infamous Iron Man transformation is something I had hoped they would keep. I do think that he shouldn't have totally abandoned Latveria as we saw with Bendis. But at least we saw him trying to straighten things out without personally stepping in. I think that is going to change but I guess this "clarion call to arms" the advance solicitations mention for Fantastic Four #1 could mean something entirely different than him retaking Latveria by force. I'd be surprised if Slott uses this General Karadick character that was left in charge.

As for Doom lacking in imagination, I'm not so sure that is the always the case. I think the fact that he can construct a suite of armor that is just as powerful and up to date as Tony's yet wrap it in a sort of replica of medieval armor does take some imagination. Or the chariot of flying horses is surely some indication of it...or perhaps whimsy? BTW I've found it fascinating that artists often have a kind of romanticism in some of the imagery dealing with Doom over the years, like some of the recent paintings done by Maleev that have been posted here. Some were commissions, some he just did them as artistic exercises I suppose.

[Fanto.mx]

Doing some catch up.....

Quite interesting assessment of Victor and Reed. Doesn't it seem like lately a Venn diagram of their character traits is starting to have a larger area of intersection? Reed tinkering with Victor's memories is pretty Doom-ish.

There's a long-running build up of poor morality in the name of pragmatism with the entire Illuminati. It would be easy to say that those stories are done, but none of them really turned the corner post Secret Wars. Hell, Strange got worse. And since Reed has been missing since SW, with the exception of the Two In One reveal/retcon, I'd say that it's pretty safe to say that Reed is, for all we know, still there. Of course, I doubt that that sticks around in the relaunch, given the expected "iconic" Doom regression.

Over the years the more interesting and less "iconic" (or as you say maniacal) versions of Doom occurred outside of the Fantastic Four and I don't think that it is coincidence. There was an old interview, which has disappeared from the internet search engines had an interview with Warren Ellis that among other topics dealt with his Doom 2099. IIRC he take on the character was that of a morally damaged revolutionary. I think that's the part I liked most about Doom 2009 is that it revisited that part of his back story where Doom is still a young man in Latveria , probably around 18 or thereabouts, and he is leading a successful though small resistance against the aristocracy.

This abandonment or abdication of the throne of Latveria that has been part of his Infamous Iron Man transformation is something I had hoped they would keep. I do think that he shouldn't have totally abandoned Latveria as we saw with Bendis. But at least we saw him trying to straighten things out without personally stepping in. I think that is going to change but I guess this "clarion call to arms" the advance solicitations mention for Fantastic Four #1 could mean something entirely different than him retaking Latveria by force. I'd be surprised if Slott uses this General Karadick character that was left in charge.

I was also surprised that he would leave Latveria as unstable as he found it. Of course, how I read that scene was that he thumped Karadick and expected him to fly right. This is actually the one line of regression that makes some story sense for me, with him rediscovering how much Latveria needs him -- and likely reverting to some of his old ways. He was a benevolent dictator who ruled with a mystic titanium fist, and to clean up the chaos that grew out of the power vacuum, the temptation may be too great. Sticking with his current code but stepping back in to run the country would be sloooow.

Now, I personally would like to see a VOTE DOOM mini series with him trying to step in -- the right way.

As for Doom lacking in imagination, I'm not so sure that is the always the case. I think the fact that he can construct a suite of armor that is just as powerful and up to date as Tony's yet wrap it in a sort of replica of medieval armor does take some imagination. Or the chariot of flying horses is surely some indication of it...or perhaps whimsy? BTW I've found it fascinating that artists often have a kind of romanticism in some of the imagery dealing with Doom over the years, like some of the recent paintings done by Maleev that have been posted here. Some were commissions, some he just did them as artistic exercises I suppose.

By a lack of imagination, I don't mean a total lack, as any inventor and artist (and Doom's both) has to be imaginative. I just mean that he can't really think outside of himself. Part of Battleworld's failure was his desire to be god emperor for sure, but his inability to fix the multiverse and his own face was a combination of his inability to trust anyone to help and his inability to really imagine what he could do. He scrambled to preserve existence, did the best he could in that instant, and then never really moved beyond that, just putting out the small fires as they cropped up. Probably the most telling thing to this end is that Strange was effectively omniscient while Doom was omnipotent. It sure seems that if Doom had fully cooperated with Strange, they could have at least come closer to restoring existence.

Reed (but I would argue it's really Valeria and Franklin) stepped in post-desperation and could see the universe and power for what it was and what it could be. But on the first note again, Reed was willing to destroy Battleworld, where Doom wasn't.

[KingsLeadHat]

It has become difficult to define "evil" in today's landscape of moral relativism, I'll grant you that. I'm certainly in the "Pro-Noble Doom" camp and really, really disliked what Waid did to him in his FF run. It's a shame because Waid is one of my favorite superhero writers.

That said, I do believe that Doom, for all his fascinating grandeur and ambition, is evil. Let me give a general example that everyone who's read old Doom comics will understand: You don't kill lackey's for incompetence if you're not evil. How many time has he done this? It's really simple--if he weren't evil, he'd just fire them. I realize this is an incredibly simplistic example but it really is that cut and dry to me.

Now, this doesn't mean that I don't feel that there are gradations of evil. Doom would be the best possible choice (IMHO) if you had to be subjugated by a villain. The worst of the worst are sadists (individuals) and of course something as monstrous as Nazism (the concerted effort of a group to exterminate a race for purely racial and xenophobic reasons).

I have to admit that I'm not a fan of the Illuminati or much of the evolution (if you can call it that) of some of the most prominent Marvel characters post-Heroes Return. I pretty much checked out of following the Marvel Universe around 2002. For me, the Illuminati has made characters like Reed unlikable and unheroic for the sake of a rather superficial take on subjective morality and psychological complexity. I do understand why this appeals to certain writers and readers, but for me it's not helpful, and kind of depressing, when applied to a mainstream superhero universe. I like Marvel characters to be flawed, sure, but ultimately the iconic characters should be a bit more idealistic when compared to many modern protagonists. There is nothing wrong with something like the Illuminati if the characters and the world were built from the ground up in that way, but that's simply not the case with the Marvel Universe.

[Iron Maiden]

It has become difficult to define "evil" in today's landscape of moral relativism, I'll grant you that. I'm certainly in the "Pro-Noble Doom" camp and really, really disliked what Waid did to him in his FF run. It's a shame because Waid is one of my favorite superhero writers.

That said, I do believe that Doom, for all his fascinating grandeur and ambition, is evil. Let me give a general example that everyone who's read old Doom comics will understand: You don't kill lackey's for incompetence if you're not evil. How many time has he done this? It's really simple--if he weren't evil, he'd just fire them. I realize this is an incredibly simplistic example but it really is that cut and dry to me.

Now, this doesn't mean that I don't feel that there are gradations of evil. Doom would be the best possible choice (IMHO) if you had to be subjugated by a villain. The worst of the worst are sadists (individuals) and of course something as monstrous as Nazism (the concerted effort of a group to exterminate a race for purely racial and xenophobic reasons).

I have to admit that I'm not a fan of the Illuminati or much of the evolution (if you can call it that) of some of the most prominent Marvel characters post-Heroes Return. I pretty much checked out of following the Marvel Universe around 2002. For me, the Illuminati has made characters like Reed unlikable and unheroic for the sake of a rather superficial take on subjective morality and psychological complexity. I do understand why this appeals to certain writers and readers, but for me it's not helpful, and kind of depressing, when applied to a mainstream superhero universe. I like Marvel characters to be flawed, sure, but ultimately the iconic characters should be a bit more idealistic when compared to many modern protagonists. There is nothing wrong with something like the Illuminati if the characters and the world were built from the ground up in that way, but that's simply not the case with the Marvel Universe.

I think when you have a hero, or anti hero, that does terrible things like the Punisher or Wolverine, it creates a problem with how the villains, or maybe one should say their antagonists are depicted. I've never been a fan of the Punisher, or at least the one that a Garth Ennis would write. It gets to be that the choice you have is between two really bad choices. Reminds me of those typical oddities one finds on the internet like a fight between a python and an alligator...If I had to choose the winner there I'd say neither.

As for the killing of the lackey, yes that had become pretty much a cliche and I sometimes wonder if Lucas sort of borrows this facet of Doom also in the Empire Strikes Back. The first time Doom kills a subordinate is when ex-Nazi Hauptmann starts to spray a room with Reed and Ben in it with a flame thrower. The mistake Hauptmann makes is that the room is Doom's art gallery. So Hauptmann then becomes the victim of Doom's sonic weapon concealed in his piano. BTW, leave it to Doom to weaponize a piano! Writers Stan & Jack ( and at this stage in the FF I think we can say Kirby is at least equally involved with the story) are careful to provide that bit of information about Hauptmann having been a Nazi. But that still presents the problem of Doom hiring an ex-Nazi. These kinds of choices do annoy me a bit because as a Roma one would think that a Nazi would be the last person that Doom would have as a member of his staff. Ironically, Doom also kills Hauptmann's brother (I don't think anyone bothered to give them first names) in Byrne's run in a clever follow up to Iron Man #149 where Hauptmann gets revenge for his brother's death by sending his hated master back in time to the age of Camelot under the mistake idea that Doom and Iron Man would never be able to return.

The most extreme case IMO is in Gerry Conway's Fantastic Four run and we see Doom demonstrating the power of his vibro bomb (which has to be one of the cornier names of his weapons on two of his henchmen who he has discovered had tried to sell some of Doom's secrets. This is another case of the writer showing Doom administering his own extreme brand of justice by executing those he considers traitors on the spot, like he later does to Hauptmann's brother.



There is an intriguing follow up when Doom gets his comeuppance at the hands of Darkoth, who was Ben's friend Desmond Pitt, who paid the price of being a double agent working for the U.S while pretending to cooperate with Doom's spies that infiltrated a U.S space flight project. What is interesting here to me is the text boxes and who exactly wrote them. Was it done by writer Gerry Conway or the issues editor, Roy Thomas? Gerry Conway had been doing a more nuanced Doom it Astonishing Tales and later in Sub-Mariner. But even Conway had Doom killing his henchmen in the Black Panther story in Astonishing Tales #6. Again, most writers have made some concession in that the henchmen are usually not of the best character perhaps under the presumption that someone like Doom can't get underlings of honorable character.

But it was stories like this that lead to discussions on the old use.net forums for comics(.... I think it was rec.arts.comics?) that lead to an interesting theory proposed by some posters that exposure to the Power Cosmic is what contributed to Doom's descent into madness in Fantastic Four #200. We've seen even the best of characters become corrupted by some other worldly force or energy. Jean Grey for example, until it gets a bit retconned that she was not the Dark Phoenix at all. But Scott Summers kills Charles Xavier when he was the last of the Phoenix Five to possess or maybe I should say be possessed by the Phoenix Force.

[Iron Maiden]

There's a long-running build up of poor morality in the name of pragmatism with the entire Illuminati. It would be easy to say that those stories are done, but none of them really turned the corner post Secret Wars. Hell, Strange got worse. And since Reed has been missing since SW, with the exception of the Two In One reveal/retcon, I'd say that it's pretty safe to say that Reed is, for all we know, still there. Of course, I doubt that that sticks around in the relaunch, given the expected "iconic" Doom regression.

That Reed is starting up the Council again is also something of a red flag, along with tinkering with people's memories. Did you also get the sense that Reed not only did it to Victor but to Ben at least? Johnny also to some extent since he's not sure of the fate of Reed and Sue either.

Stephen was on board with everything up until he finally decided to check the contents of the section of the raft that he had kept secret from Doom for what, 2 or 3 years? It has only then he decided that OK, now my real friends are back I can forget about Victor But it was Strange that seemed to be pushing Doom to take actions at times, especially in issue #2.

I was also surprised that he would leave Latveria as unstable as he found it. Of course, how I read that scene was that he thumped Karadick and expected him to fly right. This is actually the one line of regression that makes some story sense for me, with him rediscovering how much Latveria needs him -- and likely reverting to some of his old ways. He was a benevolent dictator who ruled with a mystic titanium fist, and to clean up the chaos that grew out of the power vacuum, the temptation may be too great. Sticking with his current code but stepping back in to run the country would be sloooow.

Now, I personally would like to see a VOTE DOOM mini series with him trying to step in -- the right way. .

Most writers in the past have taken the easy way back. JMS just has him strangle his Prime Minister who stepped in while Doom was trapped in Hell. Once again, we saw that Latveria has no shortage of corruption in high places even when Doom's not around. Some day I have to do a post about how many people Victor has simply strangled instead of wasting any us armor's tech on them. Books of Doom has at least 2.

By a lack of imagination, I don't mean a total lack, as any inventor and artist (and Doom's both) has to be imaginative. I just mean that he can't really think outside of himself. Part of Battleworld's failure was his desire to be god emperor for sure, but his inability to fix the multiverse and his own face was a combination of his inability to trust anyone to help and his inability to really imagine what he could do. He scrambled to preserve existence, did the best he could in that instant, and then never really moved beyond that, just putting out the small fires as they cropped up. Probably the most telling thing to this end is that Strange was effectively omniscient while Doom was omnipotent. It sure seems that if Doom had fully cooperated with Strange, they could have at least come closer to restoring existence.

Reed (but I would argue it's really Valeria and Franklin) stepped in post-desperation and could see the universe and power for what it was and what it could be. But on the first note again, Reed was willing to destroy Battleworld, where Doom wasn't.

Ah, I see what you mean. I found it interesting that even with Battleworld, Doom once again sticks with a form of government from the Middle Ages. I have to think it's because of the simplicity of autocracy. Perhaps it makes it easier on the writers too. That's another thing I liked about Doom 2099, when he created the Black Cabinet.

My theory about his inability to change is face was that it was more of a mental block. I never really wholly accepted the part about Victor blaming the accident on Reed and one gets the sense that neither did Brubaker in Books of Doom. It's that Reed has taken over that place in the spotlight that Doom feels is rightfully his IMO. Victor had failed his mother and to some extent his father. He felt the scarring of his face was punishment for his failure and in SW for being a flawed god.

[Fanto.mx]

Stephen was on board with everything up until he finally decided to check the contents of the section of the raft that he had kept secret from Doom for what, 2 or 3 years? It has only then he decided that OK, now my real friends are back I can forget about Victor But it was Strange that seemed to be pushing Doom to take actions at times, especially in issue #2.

I was actually talking post Secret Wars. In SW, you could pass a lot of Strange's actions off as the influence of Doom, whether that was fear or something more direct.

But post-SW, with Mr. Misery and The Void, Strange went so far into pragmatism that there's basically no argument to be made that he wasn't a villain. Doom went the other way.

My theory about his inability to change is face was that it was more of a mental block. I never really wholly accepted the part about Victor blaming the accident on Reed and one gets the sense that neither did Brubaker in Books of Doom.

I totally agree about his inability to change his face. He knew that his "creation," his power was flawed. He couldn't make it perfect, so he couldn't make it perfect.

[Iron Maiden]

I was actually talking post Secret Wars. In SW, you could pass a lot of Strange's actions off as the influence of Doom, whether that was fear or something more direct.

But post-SW, with Mr. Misery and The Void, Strange went so far into pragmatism that there's basically no argument to be made that he wasn't a villain. Doom went the other way.

I totally agree about his inability to change his face. He knew that his "creation," his power was flawed. He couldn't make it perfect, so he couldn't make it perfect.

I keep going back to how sour Stephen looked when Victor brushed off one of his concerns. I had to go back and revisit Secret Wars and that scene early on...





I'm going to conclude that Victor could have manipulated Stephen but decided not to...out of respect perhaps? They were there together, two mortal men, when what must have been a horrifically frightening End of Times event took place. IMO this would have been too overwhelming for just anyone...yet they came through it together. Stephen was less willing to take on the god role and ceded it to Doom.

I've lost track of what's been going on with Stephen after SW so I have a bit of catching up there, except for his appearances in Infamous Iron Man and the Sorcerers Supreme mini. I can really pin down any scene where it's shown that Strange remembers Secret Wars. That would be awkward since Doom killed him.