Doctor Doom Appreciation

[Iron Maiden]

Someone has read this comic: "Fantastic Four fought Doom before gaining powers." ??

Yes, I think that was a story written by the late Dwayne McDuffie. If that is the one I am thinking of, he planned a story showing Doom's attempt to rescue his mother's soul but once he found out about Roger Stern's GN Triumph and Torment, he backed off and turned it into a story for "What If" instead.

[ROSA13]

Avengers amp; X-Men Axis #3 (2014) - Seite 9_Fotor.jpg

[ROSA13]

Deadpool 36

[Gigglesdemon]

LOL. I incurred the eternal emnity of a Magneto fan on CBR (who I understand has since been banned) for advocating the same thing. That and he just in general would trash Doom at any chance he got so that I kept him on ignore.

But you approached it in way that is so much more satisfying and let the other guy come to the realization on his own. I always thought making them both persecuted minorities whose families suffered for it really sort of cements it. I think even Claremont, the main architect who fleshed out Magneto, would admit to using Doom as a template. The only difference is that unless I am wrong, he retconned the friendship with Charles. I recall in the X-Men, the Juggernaut Cain Marko starting out as the one villain having that prior history with Charles by making them step brothers.

The main difference is that Claremont will allow Magneto to be heroic, a guy with good intentions who sometimes goes about things the wrong way. He even retconned the Xorn situation to clear Magneto from any blame. As for myself, I'd rather think that Doom is redeemable (as Gerry Conway believed for example) but he just won't get there anytime soon. And I think most of us fans like it that way

Congrats on getting the Ellis Doom 2099 TPB. It has a lot of great bonus features like Doom's manifesto. If you can find any of the back issues by John Francis Moore, who was the first writer on the series, they are well worth reading also. Doom 2099 was far more Doom-like, or as Doom should be IMO, then what DeFalco was doing in the Fantastic Four at that time.

I've slowly been picking up back issues of Doom 2099 from the random boxes at the store. I think I have about 10 different issues now. Hopefully I can eventually get the full set.

Also, at the store today I decided to buy the two issues of Loki to see if AXIS will be worth reading. ....Hot damn Ewing writes an amazing Doom. I loved the whole discussion with Loki about the whole "story of Doom." That was grandiose and eloquent Doom at his finest. Now I really wanna pick up Axis based on these two issues.

[Iron Maiden]

I've slowly been picking up back issues of Doom 2099 from the random boxes at the store. I think I have about 10 different issues now. Hopefully I can eventually get the full set.

Also, at the store today I decided to buy the two issues of Loki to see if AXIS will be worth reading. ....Hot damn Ewing writes an amazing Doom. I loved the whole discussion with Loki about the whole "story of Doom." That was grandiose and eloquent Doom at his finest. Now I really wanna pick up Axis based on these two issues.

In the Loki: Agent of Asgard threads on issues 6 and 7, there was some discussion among the Loki fans on how Doom took over the comic book too much. Now that's a good measure of a Doom appearance worth having wouldn't you say?

And Doom is pretty awesome in Axis so far. I'm glad issue #2 is only a week away. I was a bit worried what Remender would do with Doom but so far it's on par with the Doctor Voodoo appearance. I am curious to see what the effect of the inversion is on him.

I hope you have good luck finding those other Doom 2099 issues. I like some of the characters Moore introduces like Tiger Wylde, Fortune and the mysterious consort of Doom's.

[XPac]

In the Loki: Agent of Asgard threads on issues 6 and 7, there was some discussion among the Loki fans on how Doom took over the comic book too much. Now that's a good measure of a Doom appearance worth having wouldn't you say?

And Doom is pretty awesome in Axis so far. I'm glad issue #2 is only a week away. I was a bit worried what Remender would do with Doom but so far it's on par with the Doctor Voodoo appearance. I am curious to see what the effect of the inversion is on him.

I hope you have good luck finding those other Doom 2099 issues. I like some of the characters Moore introduces like Tiger Wylde, Fortune and the mysterious consort of Doom's.

Yeah, I wasn't too worried about Doom in Axis. Remender had a pretty awesome Doom in the Doctor Voodoo mini.

As far as changes go, I think because he's a more moderate villain the change will actually be minimal. If you're more grey than black or white then it's more a matter of shade.

[Iron Maiden]

Yeah, I wasn't too worried about Doom in Axis. Remender had a pretty awesome Doom in the Doctor Voodoo mini.

As far as changes go, I think because he's a more moderate villain the change will actually be minimal. If you're more grey than black or white then it's more a matter of shade.

That is a good point and it just serves as a reminder why Fraction's Doom on his FF/Fantastic Four was so lackluster. It seems odd to call Doom "moderate" but then when you have the Red Skull in the mix, he definitely is not on that level of unchecked evil.

[DragonSlayer]

Me too xD Doom and Loki <33

[Witchfan]

spoilers:

The way I interpreted the ending of Children's Crusade was that Doom's attitude to Wanda in #8 was distorted after being possessed by the Life Force. She also seemed receptive to him and wanting to help him, going so far as call out to him by his first name. I also thought Doom's claim to being the real force behind M-Day, Avengers Disassembled, etc was again just more nonsense brought on by the Life Force possession. Just my opinion though. Clearly I was in the wrong based on the scene in today's issue.

end of spoilers

The exchange between Wanda and Doom should put to rest any belief that Doom ever really cared about Wanda, and Wanda only had feelings for Doom because she had amnesia.

[Iron Maiden]

The exchange between Wanda and Doom should put to rest any belief that Doom ever really cared about Wanda, and Wanda only had feelings for Doom because she had amnesia.

Let's not make snap judgements here. As for myself, I lean towards accepting the orginal writer of the stories intent over any follow up works.

Heinberg gave an interview at the Marvel site just as Children's Crusade was getting underway. Here are some quotes:

Marvel.com: Why did you want Doom in this series playing such a prominent role?

Allan Heinberg: To my mind, Doctor Doom was the only sorcerer powerful enough—and invested enough—to have been able to successfully engineer the Scarlet Witch's prolonged disappearance. And I also loved the idea that Doom's obsession with finding his own mother paralleled Wiccan's quest to find the Scarlet Witch.

Marvel.com: Do Doom and Wanda share any sort of history from past stories you’re tapping into here or are you creating this whole?


Allan Heinberg: If Wanda and Doom share a romantic history in the Marvel Universe, I'm unaware of it. I just loved the idea of Doom's initially having sought out Wanda to exploit her reality-altering power only to then fall in love with her. And I thought perhaps Wanda might remind Doom of his sorceress mother.

Marvel.com: What can you say about Doom’s motivations for his actions here? Are the Young Avengers right to view him as an out and out bad guy or is there some altruism at work?

Allan Heinberg: Doom's motivations are going to become very clear in CRUSADE #7. But I have to say that, where Wanda is concerned, I think Doom believes his motives are altruistic. He is still a psychopathic narcissist, but he's also a man in love. Or at least he's behaving like a man in love.



I think that we see that Wanda was a source of conflict for Doom. Heinberg goes on to say should we "At this moment, he's as vulnerable and as emotionally articulate as I've ever seen him. Though, of course, that could just be yet another pose he affects to get what he really wants."

I think it's a bit ambiguous and IMO there was a conflict there between Victor having romantic feelings for Wanda yet at the same time we know that Victor also lusts after power. I think if that had not been a factor in the story, i.e. Wanda, Doom and Wiccan needing to conjure up the Life Force again, his feelings for Wanda would have been more clear. If Patriot had not acted as he did, I wonder what would have happened.

[victor_cardigan]

I've always felt that Children's Crusade was a bit ambiguous in the end. What I always thought curious was that the X-Men were willing to lynch Wanda when they believed her responsible....yet no one seemed interested in seeking out Doom after he claimed responsibility for M-Day. That lack of..."follow-up" always seemed to me to indicate that no one really believed that Doom had anything to do with M-Day. Wanda herself in the issue doesn't seem to believe it (though by AXIS #3 this appears to have changed ). It just reads to me like everyone thinks its mad-rantings of a man possessed by the Life Force. Doom never really had any beef with mutants...why would he orchestrate M-Day anyway? More Red-Skull's MO as the current storyline suggests.

[victor_cardigan]

Yeah, I wasn't too worried about Doom in Axis. Remender had a pretty awesome Doom in the Doctor Voodoo mini.

As far as changes go, I think because he's a more moderate villain the change will actually be minimal. If you're more grey than black or white then it's more a matter of shade.

I agree, Doctor Voodoo: Avenger of the Supernatural was a great set of appearances by Doom. I had forgotten that the series was written by Remender. I was especially glad that he threw in a mention of Triumph & Torment in there. Palo's art was great too. Wish they had that series in hardcover.

[Gigglesdemon]

In the Loki: Agent of Asgard threads on issues 6 and 7, there was some discussion among the Loki fans on how Doom took over the comic book too much. Now that's a good measure of a Doom appearance worth having wouldn't you say?

And Doom is pretty awesome in Axis so far. I'm glad issue #2 is only a week away. I was a bit worried what Remender would do with Doom but so far it's on par with the Doctor Voodoo appearance. I am curious to see what the effect of the inversion is on him.

I hope you have good luck finding those other Doom 2099 issues. I like some of the characters Moore introduces like Tiger Wylde, Fortune and the mysterious consort of Doom's.

Yeah, these issues felt more like Doom issues than Loki issues. He really dominated it. Now I have another writer to nominate for writing either an Doom centric event or a Doom solo series besides Hickman.

And as it comes to single Doom 2099 issues, I have #1-2, #4, #6-12, and #14. Slowly grabbing any single issues I see.

The exchange between Wanda and Doom should put to rest any belief that Doom ever really cared about Wanda, and Wanda only had feelings for Doom because she had amnesia.

I dunno, the actually events made it seem very ambiguous where even some of the most anti-Doom heroes weren't convinced by what he said and thought he was lying to take the blame from Wanda as one last gesture while also pushing her away because of his wounded pride.

[Iron Maiden]

I've always felt that Children's Crusade was a bit ambiguous in the end. What I always thought curious was that the X-Men were willing to lynch Wanda when they believed her responsible....yet no one seemed interested in seeking out Doom after he claimed responsibility for M-Day. That lack of..."follow-up" always seemed to me to indicate that no one really believed that Doom had anything to do with M-Day. Wanda herself in the issue doesn't seem to believe it (though by AXIS #3 this appears to have changed ). It just reads to me like everyone thinks its mad-rantings of a man possessed by the Life Force. Doom never really had any beef with mutants...why would he orchestrate M-Day anyway? More Red-Skull's MO as the current storyline suggests.

I am a fan of the Scarlet Witch too. She is my favorite female hero after Sue Storm Richards. But HoM was mostly her family's story and even though I disagreed with him, Bendis seemed to think Wanda had daddy issues. I actually rolled my eyes when she crying and calling Magneto "daddy". He was never even around when the twins were younger so she had no prior emotional attachment to him specifically. And saying "you broke us"? eh, I let's just say I really didn't like Bendis take on her and be charitable about it. So in short, to have Doom take the blame makes no sense to me.

Yeah, these issues felt more like Doom issues than Loki issues. He really dominated it. Now I have another writer to nominate for writing either an Doom centric event or a Doom solo series besides Hickman.

And as it comes to single Doom 2099 issues, I have #1-2, #4, #6-12, and #14. Slowly grabbing any single issues I see.



I dunno, the actually events made it seem very ambiguous where even some of the most anti-Doom heroes weren't convinced by what he said and thought he was lying to take the blame from Wanda as one last gesture while also pushing her away because of his wounded pride.

I really do hope they revisit that because I do think that his pride was a factor also. He failed at controlling the Life Force. Wanda warned him that it was consuming him. His relationship with Wanda became questionable. Was his love for her false to begin with or did his desire for power push it all away when the opportunity arose? In a way it was like being unfaithful to Wanda with a mistress. As Thanos had this love for Death, Doom lusts after power.

[victor_cardigan]

Was his love for her false to begin with or did his desire for power push it all away when the opportunity arose? In a way it was like being unfaithful to Wanda with a mistress. As Thanos had this love for Death, Doom lusts after power.

That's a good take on it. Doom's lust for power is very often his undoing. So that explanation would be more in line with the character.

Doom being responsible for M-Day doesn't make any sense to me either. Thinking also of Doom's subsequent interactions with mutants...[X-Men 16 - 19] it just doesn't seem like they believed him responsible either. Would Cyclops really have let Doom set foot on Utopia if he thought Doom was the force behind M-Day? Would Magneto really seek his help now against Red Skull knowing that Doom was essentially seeking the same ends when he manipulated Wanda? Just doesn't work for me.