Barbara Gordon: Batgirl, Oracle Appreciation 2018

[Timber Wolf-By-Night]

Granted, I dropped Batgirl for as much financial reasons as for just being disappointed in and fed up with the New 52 in general, and I dropped it before Gail Simone's tenure ended. But unless it was revealed after I dropped it, I don't recall Barbara, in the New 52, having had a career as Oracle. Yes, there was much mention of her being shot and crippled, and of her being miraculously healed through the efforts of doctor or surgeon from another country...but there was no mention by anybody, least of all Barbara herself, of her having spent any time as Oracle in the New 52 (especially in what was then the "five year timeline" DC insisted upon). Again, if this was later changed by Simone or the Fletcher/Tarr team, I'm unaware of it and would be grateful to be corrected.

[Bukdiah]

Writers work for the company, as represented by editorial, and if they forget that they tend to get reminded on very clear terms. Simone herself has pointed that out, saying that this is an aspect of the business that fans don't appreciate. James Robinson has often said the same thing, as has Greg Rucka. Indeed, Rucka has very recently said that he thinks writers should be guided by the demands of the characters but must always keep in mind that the day will come when they are brought up short and reminded that the characters belong to the company and their demands are not sufficient to override corporate imperatives.

Can you link the source? I'm trying to google it right now. It seems like it'd be an interesting read.

[Dzetoun]

Can you link the source? I'm trying to google it right now. It seems like it'd be an interesting read.

For Rucka? It was actually a Word Balloon podcast that can be found at this site:

http://wordballoon.blogspot.com/

Warning, it's looooooooong, so allow yourself plenty of time before starting it.

[The_Greatest_Username]

Did you guys like the New 52 run? I heard Gail Simone's run was pretty divided and people often sad it was often too dark for no reason. I can see that being a valid reason of not liking it. Then issue 35 came around and it really felt like a completely different book. So colorful, light hearted in tone, and villains that didn't really seem all that threatening. Felt very CW TV Show to me.

I really enjoyed Gail's run. All of the Bat-titles were pretty dark at the time anyways, so that didn't really bother me.

[Arnoldoaad]

Did you guys like the New 52 run? I heard Gail Simone's run was pretty divided and people often sad it was often too dark for no reason. I can see that being a valid reason of not liking it. Then issue 35 came around and it really felt like a completely different book. So colorful, light hearted in tone, and villains that didn't really seem all that threatening. Felt very CW TV Show to me.

To me Batgirl by Gail Simone is her worst run ever made and by far the worst interpretation of the character. It is so bad that Barb needs to have a restraining order against Gail Simone.
she is just not human, she is a monster which makes the Future End story kind of the definitive ending of that version, she becomes a venom filled creature driven by revenge and not justice, thats what she becomes because thats who she is inside, a broken victim.

The tone was overly dark but I dont think that was the problem, you can create a dark and grim comic and make it interesting and good, a lot of the Batman books are very dark, the problem was that its themes were full of misery, Barb is just there to suffer and suffer and suffer more.

The point that really broke me was the origin of Knightfall who is a villain who dates a guy and the guy ends up killing her entire family, she asks him why and he responds ¨I did it for the lulz¨ later Knightfall pretty much goes insane and does this very crazy plan to blame herself for the murder to plan a revenge later which culminates on her capturing and torturing the guy and then creating a team of anti-heroes who trap, maim and kill petty thieves and whoever they think as ¨evil¨ because LULZ!!
It is not well written or thought out.
Finally by far the worst character on the book is Barb´s mother, an absolute non-redeemable waste of space.
with all the monsters and horrors that appear on this book Barb´s mom is the worst because the way the is written is suppose to make her the victim when she abandons her own family and her daughter twice just because she is a giantic idiot who was afraid of a little kid, it is intentionally written to make you feel sympathy for her and it ends up so incredibly disgusting for me that really makes me just want to see the character die horribly burn alive.

now the Burnside Batgirl is completely something else
it is not just the tone shift, is more about the change of focus of the character.
for example on Gail´s Batgirl, Barbara Gordon barely exists.
she doesnt have any job or studies of any kind(they are mention just not important).
she has no friends except her own roommate who is barely in the book to begin with.
she doesnt have any hobbies or private time, there is no insight on her personal life and the only introspection to the character is the Killing Joke which is repeated at least 7 times.
Gail´s Batgirl is only about Batgirl.

But Batgirl of Burnside is All about Barbara Gordon.
and Barbara Gordon is interesting, she smiles in this book, she has friends, she has a career(which is never mentioned once on gail´s run) she is proactive and intelligent but doesnt need a pat in the back for every little idea that she has and she is flawed but the flaws just make her human and they dont hammer the character down.
when Burnside Batgirl makes a mistake she actually learns from it and comes back and try again better, when Gail´s Batgirl makes a mistake someone loses a foot or a train gets bombed.

The story just simply creates an interesting world for the character and lets the character develop on it organically and even though I agree that her villains on Burnside arent very threatening, they are at least challenging and I think thats more important to make the story interesting and just make you care about Barb.
It reminded me a lot of Batgirl Year One with a little bit of Scott Pilgrim, It is just a very nice book.

[Carabas]

I really enjoyed Gail's run. All of the Bat-titles were pretty dark at the time anyways, so that didn't really bother me.

The opressing darkness bothered me. And it also bothered Gail Simone, who really wanted to write a much lighter version of Babs.

[batsgrayson]

I liked Gail Simone's run. Yes, it was dark but that enforced by editorial and not Gail who wanted a lighter tone. Looking back I even enjoyed it much more than Burnside, especially after the Convergence break.

To be honest I hope the new run can really focus on Barbara as character, that it finds her voice again. To me that is something that was missing in Burnside.

[Bukdiah]

I liked Gail Simone's run. Yes, it was dark but that enforced by editorial and not Gail who wanted a lighter tone. Looking back I even enjoyed it much more than Burnside, especially after the Convergence break.

To be honest I hope the new run can really focus on Barbara as character, that it finds her voice again. To me that is something that was missing in Burnside.

I thought Burnside Batgirl had some really cool two page spreads like illustrating how her photographic memory works, etc. I felt the stories were lacking though. Pretty to look at, but I felt the stories were shallow and the villains were kinda weird (motorcycle ninja girls lol)

Also, could you link the source where editorial was forcing her to write the darker tone?

EDIT: Found this link that addresses editorial and Gail Simone
http://dccomics.about.com/od/dccomic...ail-Simone.htm

[Cmbmool]

To me Batgirl by Gail Simone is her worst run ever made and by far the worst interpretation of the character. It is so bad that Barb needs to have a restraining order against Gail Simone.
she is just not human, she is a monster which makes the Future End story kind of the definitive ending of that version, she becomes a venom filled creature driven by revenge and not justice, thats what she becomes because thats who she is inside, a broken victim.

The tone was overly dark but I dont think that was the problem, you can create a dark and grim comic and make it interesting and good, a lot of the Batman books are very dark, the problem was that its themes were full of misery, Barb is just there to suffer and suffer and suffer more.

The point that really broke me was the origin of Knightfall who is a villain who dates a guy and the guy ends up killing her entire family, she asks him why and he responds ¨I did it for the lulz¨ later Knightfall pretty much goes insane and does this very crazy plan to blame herself for the murder to plan a revenge later which culminates on her capturing and torturing the guy and then creating a team of anti-heroes who trap, maim and kill petty thieves and whoever they think as ¨evil¨ because LULZ!!
It is not well written or thought out.
Finally by far the worst character on the book is Barb´s mother, an absolute non-redeemable waste of space.
with all the monsters and horrors that appear on this book Barb´s mom is the worst because the way the is written is suppose to make her the victim when she abandons her own family and her daughter twice just because she is a giantic idiot who was afraid of a little kid, it is intentionally written to make you feel sympathy for her and it ends up so incredibly disgusting for me that really makes me just want to see the character die horribly burn alive.

now the Burnside Batgirl is completely something else
it is not just the tone shift, is more about the change of focus of the character.
for example on Gail´s Batgirl, Barbara Gordon barely exists.
she doesnt have any job or studies of any kind(they are mention just not important).
she has no friends except her own roommate who is barely in the book to begin with.
she doesnt have any hobbies or private time, there is no insight on her personal life and the only introspection to the character is the Killing Joke which is repeated at least 7 times.
Gail´s Batgirl is only about Batgirl.

But Batgirl of Burnside is All about Barbara Gordon.
and Barbara Gordon is interesting, she smiles in this book, she has friends, she has a career(which is never mentioned once on gail´s run) she is proactive and intelligent but doesnt need a pat in the back for every little idea that she has and she is flawed but the flaws just make her human and they dont hammer the character down.
when Burnside Batgirl makes a mistake she actually learns from it and comes back and try again better, when Gail´s Batgirl makes a mistake someone loses a foot or a train gets bombed.

The story just simply creates an interesting world for the character and lets the character develop on it organically and even though I agree that her villains on Burnside arent very threatening, they are at least challenging and I think thats more important to make the story interesting and just make you care about Barb.
It reminded me a lot of Batgirl Year One with a little bit of Scott Pilgrim, It is just a very nice book.

I have nothing but respect for Gail Simone and her work. In fact, last night I tweeted her asking why haven't she shown how Oracle was functioned in the new 52 and she stated that Babs is Oracle and couldn't understand my question.

Basically it just this: Despite having two runs and brief explanations on the recovery we never did get the story of how much of an impact Babs made as Oracle before her recovery and change back into Batgirl.

Now I don't blame Gail Simone nor do I blame the other creative team of the Burnside Batgirl. They played the hand that they've been dealt with.

Still, if DC wanted to keep some fans on their titles and have us believe in this whole shorten timeline within the new 52, then maybe a few explanations could be in order for a few issues instead of it being one-shots or done in one stories.

I don't think Gail is to fully blame for her run on new 52 Batgirl. Knowing her love for the character and enjoyment of writing her she tried the best she could.

Isn't that all we can ask for ?

[Bukdiah]

Wow, well said. You're right in the fact that we got to see tons of Barbara and her life outside the costume in Burnside. That's something I didn't realize with Gail's run, probably because I liked when she was in costume doing stuff. Also, I agree with you about the team of anti-heros that maimed people. I think there was a bear trap in an issue.It was over the top limb cutting at times lol.

[K. Jones]

To me Batgirl by Gail Simone is her worst run ever made and by far the worst interpretation of the character. It is so bad that Barb needs to have a restraining order against Gail Simone.
she is just not human, she is a monster which makes the Future End story kind of the definitive ending of that version, she becomes a venom filled creature driven by revenge and not justice, thats what she becomes because thats who she is inside, a broken victim.

The tone was overly dark but I dont think that was the problem, you can create a dark and grim comic and make it interesting and good, a lot of the Batman books are very dark, the problem was that its themes were full of misery, Barb is just there to suffer and suffer and suffer more.

The point that really broke me was the origin of Knightfall who is a villain who dates a guy and the guy ends up killing her entire family, she asks him why and he responds ¨I did it for the lulz¨ later Knightfall pretty much goes insane and does this very crazy plan to blame herself for the murder to plan a revenge later which culminates on her capturing and torturing the guy and then creating a team of anti-heroes who trap, maim and kill petty thieves and whoever they think as ¨evil¨ because LULZ!!
It is not well written or thought out.
Finally by far the worst character on the book is Barb´s mother, an absolute non-redeemable waste of space.
with all the monsters and horrors that appear on this book Barb´s mom is the worst because the way the is written is suppose to make her the victim when she abandons her own family and her daughter twice just because she is a giantic idiot who was afraid of a little kid, it is intentionally written to make you feel sympathy for her and it ends up so incredibly disgusting for me that really makes me just want to see the character die horribly burn alive.

now the Burnside Batgirl is completely something else
it is not just the tone shift, is more about the change of focus of the character.
for example on Gail´s Batgirl, Barbara Gordon barely exists.
she doesnt have any job or studies of any kind(they are mention just not important).
she has no friends except her own roommate who is barely in the book to begin with.
she doesnt have any hobbies or private time, there is no insight on her personal life and the only introspection to the character is the Killing Joke which is repeated at least 7 times.
Gail´s Batgirl is only about Batgirl.

But Batgirl of Burnside is All about Barbara Gordon.
and Barbara Gordon is interesting, she smiles in this book, she has friends, she has a career(which is never mentioned once on gail´s run) she is proactive and intelligent but doesnt need a pat in the back for every little idea that she has and she is flawed but the flaws just make her human and they dont hammer the character down.
when Burnside Batgirl makes a mistake she actually learns from it and comes back and try again better, when Gail´s Batgirl makes a mistake someone loses a foot or a train gets bombed.

The story just simply creates an interesting world for the character and lets the character develop on it organically and even though I agree that her villains on Burnside arent very threatening, they are at least challenging and I think thats more important to make the story interesting and just make you care about Barb.
It reminded me a lot of Batgirl Year One with a little bit of Scott Pilgrim, It is just a very nice book.

Of course, and this isn't so much a criticism from me as it is a reason to exist and keep reading, Burnside Batgirl is essentially just Stephanie Brown Batgirl but with red hair and some nice Sherlockesque visualizations of Babs' famous photographic memory (well, and stories that actually factor in her mind-palace and the actual logistics of her broken-but-repaired spine injury.)

But that kindred spirit existed in the BQM Batgirl run too, which featured a brilliant and bright Oracle at the very same time she was undergoing ultragrimdark Snyderian horror family melodrama in Detective as James Junior turned back up. And anyway, that kindred spirit is why every time Spoiler turns up in the Batgirl book it's some of the better issues. Pluck and determination, damn it!

[The_Greatest_Username]

Burnside Batgirl is not Stephanie Brown. Steph did not invent fun.

[Arnoldoaad]

Of course, and this isn't so much a criticism from me as it is a reason to exist and keep reading, Burnside Batgirl is essentially just Stephanie Brown Batgirl but with red hair...

never once i saw Spoiler on Batgirl of Burnside
they are just very different because...

and some nice Sherlockesque visualizations of Babs' famous photographic memory (well, and stories that actually factor in her mind-palace and the actual logistics of her broken-but-repaired spine injury.)

...that exactly.
there is a completely different approach on both of them.

If I had to compare
Barb´s Batgirl was kind like Tim Drake´s Robin while Steph´s Batgirl was Nightwing.

But that kindred spirit existed in the BQM Batgirl run too, which featured a brilliant and bright Oracle at the very same time she was undergoing ultragrimdark Snyderian horror family melodrama in Detective as James Junior turned back up. And anyway, that kindred spirit is why every time Spoiler turns up in the Batgirl book it's some of the better issues. Pluck and determination, damn it!

But the big difference is that The Black Mirror is actually good.
it has scenes of amputation and dead and horror and kids doing evil things, is heavily psychological too and just as you put it ultragrim and dark

One of the best of Snyder, Honestly it is my favorite work of his.
How come this is still regarded as a masterpiece while Gail´s Batgirl is so vilified, the reason is quality. quite simple.

If you want see a grimdark tale with Batgirl told right check Arkham Asylum: Living Hell, the issue with the origin of Humpty Dumpty with Barb as Batgirl shows how that kind of aspect can be done with the character.

[Carabas]

But the big difference is that The Black Mirror is actually good.
it has scenes of amputation and dead and horror and kids doing evil things, is heavily psychological too and just as you put it ultragrim and dark

One of the best of Snyder, Honestly it is my favorite work of his.

I think the difference was that in The Black Mirror, Snyder was forced to write Batman as a not that dark character, because he was Dick Grayson at the time. It forced him to add nuance to his story.
In the New 52 he gets to write Bruce Wayne, and his Bruce Wayne feels like a charicature of the character's darkest incarnations. Some kind of almost inhuman, always angry, grimdark super-avenger.

Maybe he got better after I dropped it, but reading the threads, I kinda doubt it.

How come this is still regarded as a masterpiece while Gail´s Batgirl is so vilified, the reason is quality. quite simple.

Contrast, I would say.
If editorial forces a uniformly grimdark tone on all Batman family books, then nothing is going to stand out, and the one that most deviates from what it ought to be is not going to be viewed as favourite by fans while on the otherhand the fans are used to the main Bruce Wayne Batman books to be various kinds of dark.

Also, Snyder's events pretty much being scattered all over the Bat-family books (except Bat-Woman) means his books are even more visible and influential, and people who are not on board with that just leave.

[Arnoldoaad]

I think the difference was that in The Black Mirror, Snyder was forced to write Batman as a not that dark character, because he was Dick Grayson at the time. It forced him to add nuance to his story.
In the New 52 he gets to write Bruce Wayne, and his Bruce Wayne feels like a charicature of the character's darkest incarnations. Some kind of almost inhuman, always angry, grimdark super-avenger.

Maybe he got better after I dropped it, but reading the threads, I kinda doubt it.

this implying that Barb by default is a Dark character like Bruce and not like Dick.
I dissagree, if Gail really wanted a lighter tone on the book but editorial was forcing it at the very least he could had made Barb smile once in a while. she didnt need to be put into an spiral of misery 24/7.

Contrast, I would say.
If editorial forces a uniformly grimdark tone on all Batman family books, then nothing is going to stand out, and the one that most deviates from what it ought to be is not going to be viewed as favourite by fans while on the otherhand the fans are used to the main Bruce Wayne Batman books to be various kinds of dark.

Also, Snyder's events pretty much being scattered all over the Bat-family books (except Bat-Woman) means his books are even more visible and influential, and people who are not on board with that just leave.

I dont think the influence of the Snyder books have anything to do with this, Black Mirror didnt had any tie-ins