Death and Resurrection in X-Books

[GallowGlass]

I'm really happy to see the elf making a comeback as well! At least he got a noble death and awesome resurrection... unlike his poor adopted sister I am going to crow with happiness the day that they meet again!!

Rogue had her fair share of the spotlight over the last decade, and until recently, her character had grown into a strong, independent woman who embodied Xavier's dream 110%. At one point, I'd dare say she was more a crusader than the Golden Boy, Cyclops! For reasons yet to be explained (explained WELL, I mean), the editors suddenly decided to take all of that development away from her at the height of her glory and regress her to a sullen, angry background character in Uncanny Avengers. Her death was pointless and served only to bolster the Scarlet Witch as a martyr, even though there had been no animosity between the two women prior to those horrible moments in UA #15.



Rogue's death so far has had ZERO impact, served NO purpose, made NO sense, was NOT dignified or noble, and was completely out of character (I don't care for Remender's justification explanation either, it was incredibly weak and very lame). On top of all that, it happened RIGHT BEFORE A MAJOR HOLIDAY-- One that is meant to be spent with family and friends!!!

I don't know if you could possibly kill off another X-Man as badly as how she died.

I don't know under what context she died and I don't care really because (fanboy comment) fuck Uncanny Avengers as a concept but I love your indignation at the time of year it was done.

As a very general statement, I think there are cases where various characters can "cycle" around. Take the spotlight for a while, fade out and bring other big players to mix things up, then return former characters to the spotlight behind a wave of excitement.

Merely a general opinion of why these things happen, but more often than not I would call it the root cause. Its possible rogue is a similar case, though her situation seems a bit different. I know very little about her or her death in the grand scheme of things, so my opinion means absolutely nothing, but it didn't seem like there was a massive uproar about her death, and her eventual return seems very casual "ya it'll happen eventually, just figuring it out blah blah".


I can think of one *evil squint towards planet-x*.

EDIT:
Deaths in general are tricky. Once upon a time they held a lot more substance, and I would have supported keeping them down. DPS as we know was incredibly powerful, and things like resurrections lessen the impact of the product, unless you are coming into comics for the first time, not aware of constant revivals.

With that said, now its more of a marketing tool. Hype up deaths - big numbers. Bring people back - big numbers. Its a case by case basis if its actually good though. I think in general its much harder to get the same emotional impact from them though, since at the end of the day, you almost always know they are coming back. However for both business, and diehard fans of those characters, its a different story.

Strangely enough, as a Jean fan my perspective is skewed. Deaths and resurrections drive me insane, and make me upset, because I want to see my favorite character in the books and its (for some unknown reasons) almost offensive to see everyone else pop back, and wonder if Jean ever is.

Planetary scale stroke or decapitation? Both were fun.

I wish editors and writers would STOP using death as a plot device. It's common knowledge that nearly all characters will come back if they're widely known (RIP Wallflower 4ever :'-( ) but I'd rather read about their fictional lives without having characters *dead* for a few years. Send them plausibly off into character limbo instead! Then you don't need to convolute things with ever more resurrection storylines!

This is well said, sir.

[Captain Buttocks]

I really hated the Kyle and Yost "killing characters for cheap shock value" story device.

I think if deaths had an illusion of permanence, and weren't overused, it wouldnt be such a tired thing.

I remember Brubaker killing off Banshee (a well-loved character who has been around since the 60's) to show his new character Was A Boss. Because making a character stand out through good writing and dramtisation is sooo in the past now. Just pick a random limbo character, kill him, and Joe Q gets to Break The Internet In Half.

[Sutekh]

Jean's death felt meaningful and powerful and shocking, at the time. Then she came back, for an ill-conceived notion of "Let's get the original 5 X-Men together, even if it requires us to bring Jean back from the dead, write Bobby and Warren regressed back to how they haven't been for *decades,* change Hank from the Beast into his original appearance (and then change his powers to fit some cookie-cutter template that requires us to have a 'team bruiser' who can go toe-to-toe with the Thing), and make Scott abandon his wife and child to go moon after Jean again..."

Or, short-short version, "I don't want to write a book about these 5 old characters, or be beholden to their current statuses or storylines, so let's just write 5 all new characters, and use their names and likenesses."

Jean's resurrection pretty much undid a great story.

Other X-folk have had it even worse, and their deaths generally weren't even great stories, making their resurrections just another pointless non-event following a pointless non-event.

The worst, IMO, is when a character is brought back as part of an event, and then scheduling gets wonky, and the character lies fallow afterwards, because whatever they were being brought back for, doesn't happen as planned. Woo, Barry Allen is back after 25 years of nobody asking for him back! And now, for six months, we'll do a fat stack of jack with him, leaving even his fans wondering, 'what was the point, exactly?'

I kind of feel the same way with Colossus. I didn't care for the nature of his death, or the whole Legacy Virus plotline, but it was a noble sort of death, and after losing Ilyanna, it made some sense for the character. And now he's back, and the X-verse has sort of moved on, and the niche he filled as a character no longer seems to exist, so he's sort of standing around holding his cheese. I don't blame Whedon for that, since Whedon had uses for him during his run on Astonishing, but I would kind of like for a character's return to end up being so awesome that it warrants the 'undoing' of their death, and, so far, I feel like Colossus' death was a stronger story than anything that he's done since his return. (Same with Jean, really. And hence her being dead again, because the universe sort of moved on, and 'you can't go home again,' and she turned out to be written as more relevant to the greater X-story as a corpse / warning story than she did as a living character.)

Other characters, like Banshee and Nightcrawler, had less amazing deaths, and so a quiet resurrection feels less like taking away from a 'good death' and more 'correcting a mistake.'

On the other, other hand, Banshee's plot arcs seem to be 'he screams too much, and loses his voice, and we sideline him for a year.' I'm not sure I want him being resurrected if writers can't think of a darn thing to do with the character, since he'll end up standing around with Colossus, taking up space. Thanks to Dead X-Men / Mikaboshi / Selene / Apocalypse Twins, it seems like characters like Banshee get more action dead than they did alive, anyway.

I really hated the Kyle and Yost "killing characters for cheap shock value" story device.

Between young X-peeps being put on busses, and Superboy Prime punching Teen Titans to death over at DC, it seemed like a competition for which company could be more horrible, for awhile.

I remember Brubaker killing off Banshee (a well-loved character who has been around since the 60's) to show his new character Was A Boss. Because making a character stand out through good writing and dramtisation is sooo in the past now.

And that's the worst bit, for me. "Hey, let's showcase how *amazeballs* this character is by having him kill all of Alpha Flight!"

Six months later. "Let's resurrect Alpha Flight, because they are actually worth a rusty dinar, and whoever that amazeballs dude was, I don't even remember..."

Lame characters are lame. Arcade can kill every single teen hero that ever teened a hero, and he's still going to be a worthless loser. Brian Vaughn or Christos Gage could blow their nose with a page, and the result will be worth more than some hopped up villain who kills a bunch of teen heroes (mostly through incredible levels of writer fiat) to show off his 'street cred.'

[Tomppa]

I agree with you mostly, but that really wasn't the focus of why I started the thread. I mean it more as a thread to specifically discuss Death & Resurrection in X-Books and that's why I posted this thread in X-Books.
I still think the X-Men broke a lot of new ground for comic books and that Claremont and company deserve a lot of credit for that.
I'm not saying that other titles and creators haven't been as committed or successful in forging new and important ground.

I don't read many other mainstream titles outside of the X-Men, that's also why I posted this in the X-titles section.

I suppose every title has fans that can justifiably lay claim to their favorite books being most significant to them and to their appreciation of comic books. I'd never want to change that.

This was meant as a discussion purely about Death and Resurrection in the X-Men, a catalog of the occurrences and a look at the ongoing motif as it runs through the various titles over time.

I didn't mean this as any sort of debate about the X-Men being better than any other title. I have nothing but respect for the fans of any book. The X-Men are just what I know, and X-titles are what I filter my comic book perspective through.

Still, I appreciate your arguments and think they have good merit.

Oh I know that it was a bit off topic but just had to wonder about it. And who says that X-Men aren't the best? Not me! I don't read much else besides X-Men either but as an x-fan it makes me wonder why X-Men are often considered to be more difficult/confusing/full of deaths and resurrections than any other title despite the fact that it doesn't seem to be tru. But that might be a discussion for a thread of it's own.

Regarding Death, Resurrections, and Reanimations, the New Mutant's obliteration and recreation by the Beyonder deserves discussion for being mass - production if nothing else.

I remember how offended I was by Jean's original 'resurrection', but now I'm completely at peace with it, envious actually. "No longer am I the woman you once knew" as her second sentence out of the water is a sweet set up line for a replacement; the fact no one took it literally doesn't stop it from being true. (I always remembered it as "I am not the woman you once knew", which would be the ultimate 'Told You So' line!-)

In each case, there was a kind of 'earned' element: the New Mutants were brought back as zombies and required a few issues to pass from psychological undead to alive. Jean had both the 'Cap'-type reawakening, plus the 'You married HER???' Body snatcher existential horror. (The fact everyone loved Phoenix more, that everyone preferred the copy... that really sacked for Jean. For that matter, I certainly preferred Phoenix too (Jean was such a whiner!-)

Jean was always a special case, of course, in that her 'origin' event was connecting telepathically with her best friend who had just been hit by a car, and then following her down into the Black... which is probably why she linked with the Phoenix in the first place (again, if anyone is being set up to resurrect, being literally named 'Phoenix' as your code-name... she was doubly established to come back.)

And there it is. Claremont used death/resurrection as a plat form for character development. Sure he killed them and brought them back but it wasn't just that, he explored it and the consequences it had on their psyche to be killed and resurrected. Now death/resurrection is a sales gimmick and seems to be the only way to write any character out of any book. It's kind of sad.

[G0RM]

And there it is. Claremont used death/resurrection as a plat form for character development. Sure he killed them and brought them back but it wasn't just that, he explored it and the consequences it had on their psyche to be killed and resurrected. Now death/resurrection is a sales gimmick and seems to be the only way to write any character out of any book. It's kind of sad.

I don't know if I'm the only one who thinks so, but I really liked both of the Secret Wars series (although I hated the retcon about the Beyonder being an Inhuman... makes no sense at all, whereas the Beyonder/Cosmic Cube/Molecule Man original was one of the great works of Backstory ever.)

In SW II #9 the Beyonder incarnated himself as a mortal, using the gadget he tested by reanimating the New Mutants (imperfectly; he tweaked it a bit more before trying it on himself.)

His monolog after the first time he tried mortality, and then changed back to immortal, was particularly apt to this discussion:

"What a RUSH! It was awesome... Terrifying... EXHILARATING! I -- I was Aging! Each breath seemed like... An EVENT! Each second was unique! It was UNBEARABLE -- ! -- And yet, now the oppressive sameness of every moment in this form is unbearable!"

And speaking of immortal, the nature of current copyright law, where the duration of copyright gets 30 years longer every 20 years means "Steamboat Willy", and therefore 'Mickey Mouse', will outlive the sun (Yay Disney, not coincidentally, owner of the literally immortal intellectual property we're discussing.)

The fact that every one of these characters will continue to generate revenue long after those of us reading them turn to dust is *why* these characters literally cannot stay dead: the "Resurrection and Profits" corollary to the original observation by Ben Franklin.

So we're constantly searching for exhilaration and inspiration from a medium which, by its nature, must repeatedly return to the status quo.

Hmmm...

That reminds me of Einstein's definition of insanity...

[Sardorim]

I'm really happy to see the elf making a comeback as well! At least he got a noble death and awesome resurrection... unlike his poor adopted sister I am going to crow with happiness the day that they meet again!!

Rogue had her fair share of the spotlight over the last decade, and until recently, her character had grown into a strong, independent woman who embodied Xavier's dream 110%. At one point, I'd dare say she was more a crusader than the Golden Boy, Cyclops! For reasons yet to be explained (explained WELL, I mean), the editors suddenly decided to take all of that development away from her at the height of her glory and regress her to a sullen, angry background character in Uncanny Avengers. Her death was pointless and served only to bolster the Scarlet Witch as a martyr, even though there had been no animosity between the two women prior to those horrible moments in UA #15.



Rogue's death so far has had ZERO impact, served NO purpose, made NO sense, was NOT dignified or noble, and was completely out of character (I don't care for Remender's justification explanation either, it was incredibly weak and very lame). On top of all that, it happened RIGHT BEFORE A MAJOR HOLIDAY-- One that is meant to be spent with family and friends!!!

I don't know if you could possibly kill off another X-Man as badly as how she died.

Rememder killed Rogue for one reason and one reason alone - He wants everyone to fall in his belief that the Scarlet Witch is pure, innocent and right and Rogue must die to killing his beautiful messiah as that gets in the way of Wanda berating the people she's hurt and go commit more genocide down the line.

[motherofpearl1]

I really hated the Kyle and Yost "killing characters for cheap shock value" story device.

I think if deaths had an illusion of permanence, and weren't overused, it wouldnt be such a tired thing.

I remember Brubaker killing off Banshee (a well-loved character who has been around since the 60's) to show his new character Was A Boss. Because making a character stand out through good writing and dramtisation is sooo in the past now. Just pick a random limbo character, kill him, and Joe Q gets to Break The Internet In Half.

That seems to be the done thing nowadays. The X Men have devolved into a tacky soap opera that has to rely on shock tactics to keep its audience.
As one of the guys at Marvel recently said, they like to provoke 'nerdrage'.

[motherofpearl1]

Rememder killed Rogue for one reason and one reason alone - He wants everyone to fall in his belief that the Scarlet Witch is pure, innocent and right and Rogue must die to killing his beautiful messiah as that gets in the way of Wanda berating the people she's hurt and go commit more genocide down the line.

Wanda is obviously his favourite. But I wish I kbew why Remender has been allowed to keep Rogue when she's just his whipping girl to make his favourite look good.

[sungila]

Oh I know that it was a bit off topic but just had to wonder about it. And who says that X-Men aren't the best? Not me! I don't read much else besides X-Men either but as an x-fan it makes me wonder why X-Men are often considered to be more difficult/confusing/full of deaths and resurrections than any other title despite the fact that it doesn't seem to be tru. But that might be a discussion for a thread of it's own.

And there it is. Claremont used death/resurrection as a plat form for character development. Sure he killed them and brought them back but it wasn't just that, he explored it and the consequences it had on their psyche to be killed and resurrected. Now death/resurrection is a sales gimmick and seems to be the only way to write any character out of any book. It's kind of sad.

Thanks Tompaa for for responding (I often get overly concerned that potential good discussion with intelligent people will get needlessly contentious). In my current re-reading of NM I'm right now in the midst of the Beyonder encounter that you and GORM have brought to light. I agree with you. Claremont's work here has a power and elegance that is sorely missed in the X-books. The first fifty or so issues of NM are astounding - surprisingly immediate and may well stand as some of the best character studies in X-books. A friend recently described her experience with these comics as so personal that it felt like all the chaos and turmoil of her own difficult childhood had been sussed out into the open and given full voice.
It's truly painful to see these characters die and suffer the anguish of their dwindling spirits. As always, Claremont, pits real despair against the seeded heroism of human hope. Each character must grow out of their own ashes into a newly realized self - from the vested resolve of their inner strength. Still, these comics somehow manage to make the whole story feel real - never rushing or spilling too fast - but letting things emerge.

@GORM the interesting thing about 'insanity' is that in the individual it is often a sign of heroism. To adjust oneself to a world that is maladjusted and cyclically-doomed is to commit one's soul to a window seat in a sinking prison. The 'insanity' is the 'genius'. To gather all the facts and despite the evidence - to choose to care...to hope...and step outside. To regard the tempests of time as wind for the sails - not fixed...to create something...to be an artist. One must be insane to imagine such a purpose...such a possibility...
MLK said it really well "“The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” The crazy people are our heroes.

[G0RM]

I think if deaths had an illusion of permanence, and weren't overused, it wouldnt be such a tired thing.

Regarding the deepest level of the question of Death and Resurrection in comics and other fictional media:

At times it has occurred to me that the Marvel Universe could be 'explained' if it were a kind of literary and literal 'Hell'...

Which is to say, maybe all of the characters have already 'died', and this is their afterlife... they are telling themselves they 'almost' died, but gosh darn they miraculously managed to 'live' through the remarkably convienient manifestation of super powers and luck just in the nick of time (or at least they developed 'abilities' in the wake of a 'close call': see the movies "Donnie Darko", "Jacob's Ladder", "Lathe of Heaven", "Dark City", "Sixth Sense" etc)

It isn't absolute, but look at the majority of the characters: The Fantastic Four 'survived' an experimental rocket crash after a Cosmic Ray storm, the Hulk 'lived' through an above-ground nuclear test, Iron Man 'saved' himself from the shrapnel in his chest, Dr Blake/Thor was trapped in a cave with no way out, Dr Strange was lost in a blizzard in the Himalayas, Spiderman was bitten by a spider and then 'jumped' out of the way of traffic, Daredevil threw himself in front of a truck that dumped toxic waste on him, Jean had a 'friend' who was struck by a car, Cyclops fell out of a plane in a burning parachute...

If these 'near' death experiences were a lot *closer* than they think...
Well...
"I see (and read) dead people!"

(It's a fun exercise: try it yourself... In other superhumans too: Batman's 'watched' as his parents were killed by a robber, Superman is the 'survivor' of the destruction of a planet and Galactus a Universe, the Flash was struck by lightning and dumped with chemicals, Cap was a 4F volunteer for a risky military medical experiment, Cannonball was buried in a mine cave-in, Colossus/Illyana faced a runaway tractor, Legion being within the blast-radius of a suicide-bomber, Gilligan's Island is about the improbable adventures of the 'survivors' of a storm and shipwreck, 'Lost' etc, Doom built a machine to contact his dead mother which exploded, not to mention Dr Manhattan...)

Whether they are now trapped and suffering immortally in the Hell of dutiful neurotic angst as Peter Parker, or reveling in the care-free adventure of respawning battle as per Valhalla, is a matter of their personal viewpoint and attitude. The system is certainly largely cyclical, but with details, permutations that never quite exactly repeat, and are therefore 'helical'... Perhaps even Sisyphus could have noticed changes in the dirt beneath his feet and coating his boulder, which fingers and toes have what blisters where, and how do they feel when he does this or does that, or if it rolls here or if it rolls there...

I've been reading a lot recently about "Mindfulness" and the value of noticing the smallest differences perceivable as a way to form new categories of thought, rather than staying stuck in the ruts of old mindsets... observing all the subtlest features of this spoonful of oatmeal that makes it so remarkably unique, so separate from every other spoonful you've ever eaten before, or will ever eat again... surfing the rippling waves of life in an eternal *NOW*, rather than robotically clicking through a countable number of repetitive categories...

Well, I'm articulating this rather eliptically... but Mindfulness is experiential, a 'Dao' that exists beyond words: "The Dao that can be described is not the Dao" etc...

Wow, I've drifted off topic... Again!-)

[mikef]

Rogue's death so far has had ZERO impact, served NO purpose, made NO sense, was NOT dignified or noble, and was completely out of character (I don't care for Remender's justification explanation either, it was incredibly weak and very lame). On top of all that, it happened RIGHT BEFORE A MAJOR HOLIDAY-- One that is meant to be spent with family and friends!!!

I don't know if you could possibly kill off another X-Man as badly as how she died.

I don't read UA, partly because I don't like the Avengers and partly because Remender writes boring stories, but I did happen to flick through this one on Marvel Unlimited, and my reaction was to shrug my shoulders and think
"meh, they're just going to bring her back"

Deaths have no emotional impact in the MU any more. Whether they intend to bring the character back or not. Wolverine dying? Who cares? Marvel are just thinking of how much money a return of Wolverine will make.

[sureshot]

I'm starting to wonder if showing that death in comics to be meaningless is a decision that was made within comic companies long ago. Young children read comics so by showing that death is not permanent making some sort of public service announcement. Or something along those lines. Misguided attempt "to save the children!" as you will. Otherwise while I get it's in a comic universe death in DC and Marvel at least is a joke imo. Popular character a few months, year or two off and back. Unpopular character is the only ones that usual stay dead. Even then not even that. Remember the comics code and how for the longest time both companies made sure their comics were approved by them. I wonder if death as a joke is because of that.

[SJNeal]

Wanda is obviously his favourite. But I wish I kbew why Remender has been allowed to keep Rogue when she's just his whipping girl to make his favourite look good.

Stuff like this is in no way unprecedented; Bendis was allowed to systematically destroy the Avengers one by one for the better part of a decade...

[ariwl1]

I'm surprised no one has posted this yet.