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  1. #7051
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I would say most Superhero shows don't tend to drag these conflicts out but they don't play the long-game as much as Greg Weisman does.

  2. #7052
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Peggy's daughter, originally, though with the sliding timescale that no longer works, I think she's something like great niece by now. Peggy was actually resurrected in the last Captain America run and will continue to be part of Steve's supporting cast - alongside Sharon - in the new one. She's a spy codenamed Dryad.
    Ah, thanks for the info.

    Hell, Pepper married Happy in the comics! The MCU instead had her with Tony, and had Happy date Aunt May Parker (who is much younger than her comic book counterpart).
    And now aunt May is dead, Happy can become more like his early comic book counterpart and look like the most depressed motherfucker to make his name ironic .

    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Slayer View Post
    But im kind over Martians...they are just SO DAMN POWERFUL that it makes it hard to keep things exciting when they show up.
    Just have M'gann around, she's broken enough to make small groups of martians into her personal punching bag .

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I'm just waiting for someone to finally take out Malefak but it feels like the show has to keep the villains OP to keep the conflicts going or to back up other villains.
    Man Malefaak was just M'gann's punching bag, but I guess dealing with anyone else can show how busted he is lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thezmage View Post
    Might've started here:
    Well, clearly comics Batgirl should've listened to this counterpart of hers':



    (Batgirl#50 vol 5)

    Why the hell is she posing near a bomb though...

    EDIT:


    I think it's jsut a sign that the YJ writers have a "tell, don't show" problem
    That they definitely do, and it's part of the reason timeskips are so obnoxious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Slayer View Post
    But Martians in general in YJ have been very powerful with little limitations.
    Have they? I haven't caught up with recent episodes (Stopped at Kaldur'ahm's), but I don't remember any Martian besides M'gann being impressive, the others are just kinda there.

    Even Green Beetle, who should be the most busted character back in season 2, barely showed off his powers, Black Beetle generally looked like the toughest one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Except Martian Manhunter :P.
    J'onn is the designated J'obber, even though he's not fighting, he's only there so we can know how super badass M'gann is lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thezmage View Post
    After three seasons of everything turning out "just as planned" for the villains, or the hero's most major accomplishments being portrayed as minor setbacks for The Light, I think a fair number of fans don't believe that the latest overpowered villain is there for the heroes to defeat anymore.
    On the other hand, back in season 2, the Reach clearly lost very badly, maybe the current non-Light/non-Apokolips villains will lose, but Light will still be untouchable, as always...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    4 season and in universe 10 year fighting a villain whoís been planning for over a 1000 years. Again if you think the lives they save are meaningless becuase they didnít topple vandal I donít think the superhero genre is for you
    Well, they barely show the heroes saving lives as something worth it when all it does is make them easier for Light to manipulate 'em lol.

    If anything, YJ actively tends to reward heroes for being barely better than the Light, though season 3 toned that down.

    Plus, Vandal isn't nearly as competent as the show likes to imply, motherfucker sent Warworld to Earth in an insane plan that relied on the heroes being just competent enough to protect the Earth, but not competent too competent so Reach has to use their ships to protect Earth to reveal that they lied about not having warships (And also rely on Reach making that lie after Warworld is coming to Earth), and just hope that Mongul doesn't destroy the Earth he wants to make into a super power.

    Seriously... The problem is that Weisman picked his fetish for competent villains and went too far with it, that made Light into just a bunch of boring invincible villains who'd probably manage to win even if they all get killed, and heroes just can't get a real victory over them because they're either out of the loop or just incompetent, despite Vandal's claim back in season 2 that Kaldur'ahm fucked him over more than anyone ever did, what did Light lose there? Nothing important, the agreement with Reach was about to end anyways, the captured Light members don't matter, Vandal got Warworld anyways, and they found ways to keep the Meta Human trafficking in season 3.

    It's just boring how strong their plot armor is, it doesn't even get scratched.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I would say most Superhero shows don't tend to drag these conflicts out but they don't play the long-game as much as Greg Weisman does.
    Yeah, at best they have a season long arc, maybe two, and maybe leave some seeds for stuff to continue later, YJ meanwhile relies on this tease of Apokolips going to war on Earth, which likely will never happen.

    Hell, even Spectacular Spider-Man, which's also by Weisman, didn't rely too much on "we're easing something will happen!", at best we have shit like hinting that Venom, Otto or Green Goblin will return but, that's it, they generally did return anyways.

    It tells you something that Norman, who's the closest thing to a Light-like leader in Spectacular, is far less competent, gets actually screwed, and in season 2, actually lost, not permanently since he's still alive and is moving to Europe while Spidey is unaware of any of this, but this is less repetitive, since he took actual damage, and was in a new situation by not being in New York anymore, while Light are always around, always overpowered, always invincible, always boring, blergh.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  3. #7053

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Well, they barely show the heroes saving lives as something worth it when all it does is make them easier for Light to manipulate 'em lol.

    If anything, YJ actively tends to reward heroes for being barely better than the Light, though season 3 toned that down.

    Plus, Vandal isn't nearly as competent as the show likes to imply, motherfucker sent Warworld to Earth in an insane plan that relied on the heroes being just competent enough to protect the Earth, but not competent too competent so Reach has to use their ships to protect Earth to reveal that they lied about not having warships (And also rely on Reach making that lie after Warworld is coming to Earth), and just hope that Mongul doesn't destroy the Earth he wants to make into a super power.

    Seriously... The problem is that Weisman picked his fetish for competent villains and went too far with it, that made Light into just a bunch of boring invincible villains who'd probably manage to win even if they all get killed, and heroes just can't get a real victory over them because they're either out of the loop or just incompetent, despite Vandal's claim back in season 2 that Kaldur'ahm fucked him over more than anyone ever did, what did Light lose there? Nothing important, the agreement with Reach was about to end anyways, the captured Light members don't matter, Vandal got Warworld anyways, and they found ways to keep the Meta Human trafficking in season 3.

    It's just boring how strong their plot armor is, it doesn't even get scratched.

    Yeah, at best they have a season long arc, maybe two, and maybe leave some seeds for stuff to continue later, YJ meanwhile relies on this tease of Apokolips going to war on Earth, which likely will never happen.

    Hell, even Spectacular Spider-Man, which's also by Weisman, didn't rely too much on "we're easing something will happen!", at best we have shit like hinting that Venom, Otto or Green Goblin will return but, that's it, they generally did return anyways.

    It tells you something that Norman, who's the closest thing to a Light-like leader in Spectacular, is far less competent, gets actually screwed, and in season 2, actually lost, not permanently since he's still alive and is moving to Europe while Spidey is unaware of any of this, but this is less repetitive, since he took actual damage, and was in a new situation by not being in New York anymore, while Light are always around, always overpowered, always invincible, always boring, blergh.
    Hell, in Gargoyles Xanatos was hypercompetent but was still shown to be regularly punching above his weight class. It was clear that when he pulled a success out of a victory that he still lost, and part of his plans were still set back if not outright thwarted. Hell, sometimes he outright screwed up, like the first episode where Fox gets overtaken by the Eye of Odin and he had to expose his "weakness" (that is, loving her) in order to rescue her.

  4. #7054
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thezmage View Post
    Hell, in Gargoyles Xanatos was hypercompetent but was still shown to be regularly punching above his weight class. It was clear that when he pulled a success out of a victory that he still lost, and part of his plans were still set back if not outright thwarted. Hell, sometimes he outright screwed up, like the first episode where Fox gets overtaken by the Eye of Odin and he had to expose his "weakness" (that is, loving her) in order to rescue her.
    That's good to hear actually, 'cause the trope "Xanatos Gambit" is named after him, that made me assume he was basically Proto-Light in being boringly invincible lol.

    Did he keep his cool no matter what though? Even though Norman in Spectacular wasn't invincible, it was kinda infuriating he kept his cool even when losing.

    Not that he'd be as bad as Light even if he always keeps his cool, Norman always keeping his cool so much was kinda infuriating, but that's it, if Xanatos keeps his cool no matter what, but still actually loses here and there, then it makes the story more flexible, and that's a good flexibility.

    I think maybe Weisman started with this villains being overpowered shit to make it more rewarding for when heroes actually win, but started to like invincible villains too much and now we're stuck with the Light, or maybe he just forgot why he ,ade villains be so busted earlier on, though that's assuming my "villains are strong for victories to be more meaningful" is true, it could always be a case of him prefering overpowered villains since always, and he just forgot or stopped bothering to add nuance in YJ.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  5. #7055
    Astonishing Member Primal Slayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    That's good to hear actually, 'cause the trope "Xanatos Gambit" is named after him, that made me assume he was basically Proto-Light in being boringly invincible lol.

    Did he keep his cool no matter what though? Even though Norman in Spectacular wasn't invincible, it was kinda infuriating he kept his cool even when losing.

    Not that he'd be as bad as Light even if he always keeps his cool, Norman always keeping his cool so much was kinda infuriating, but that's it, if Xanatos keeps his cool no matter what, but still actually loses here and there, then it makes the story more flexible, and that's a good flexibility.

    I think maybe Weisman started with this villains being overpowered shit to make it more rewarding for when heroes actually win, but started to like invincible villains too much and now we're stuck with the Light, or maybe he just forgot why he ,ade villains be so busted earlier on, though that's assuming my "villains are strong for victories to be more meaningful" is true, it could always be a case of him prefering overpowered villains since always, and he just forgot or stopped bothering to add nuance in YJ.
    Wait....you've never watched Gargoyles?

  6. #7056
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    That's good to hear actually, 'cause the trope "Xanatos Gambit" is named after him, that made me assume he was basically Proto-Light in being boringly invincible lol.

    Did he keep his cool no matter what though? Even though Norman in Spectacular wasn't invincible, it was kinda infuriating he kept his cool even when losing.

    Not that he'd be as bad as Light even if he always keeps his cool, Norman always keeping his cool so much was kinda infuriating, but that's it, if Xanatos keeps his cool no matter what, but still actually loses here and there, then it makes the story more flexible, and that's a good flexibility.

    I think maybe Weisman started with this villains being overpowered shit to make it more rewarding for when heroes actually win, but started to like invincible villains too much and now we're stuck with the Light, or maybe he just forgot why he ,ade villains be so busted earlier on, though that's assuming my "villains are strong for victories to be more meaningful" is true, it could always be a case of him prefering overpowered villains since always, and he just forgot or stopped bothering to add nuance in YJ.
    Well, he definitely didn't keep his cool when he was about to crash into a tanker of Pumpkin Bombs even if he survived .

    Weisman's penchant for this dates back to his Captain Atom run in the 80's (?). Wade Eiling was basically a proto-Xanatos manipulating and maneuvering Nate to fulfill his goals and being such a smug piece of @#$%. He didn't get any comeuppance (as far as I'm aware) until he went full Supervillain, and Weisman didn't even like that.

  7. #7057
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Slayer View Post
    Wait....you've never watched Gargoyles?
    Nope, only somewhat learned of it years ago because of the "Xanatos Gambit" trope, and it's only because of the Xanatos name, didn't know it was from Gargoyles, and only at some point after watching YJ that I learned Weisman even worked on it, and first time I watched YJ was like, maybe an year before season 3 came out.

    I also don't really know what even is on Gargoyles, I know there's a very smart villain, and I assume there are gargoyles, and I think there's a police woman in it? That's about it.

    I can be very late in watching stuff, I for example only watched Breaking Bad years after it ended, and I only watched it 'cause a friend of mine just knew how to be insistent enough to make me watch it.

    Also haven't gotten anywhere near Game of Thrones, and with how much I hear the last seasons were trash, I'm in no rush to start it.

    Despite me being a borderline Spectacular Spider-Man fanboy, I was really late into watching it too lol.

    Oh and since I'm talking these kinds of shit, I never watched more than 3 episodes of 90's Batman cartoon and still didn't get interested into watching more, never played a Mario or Pokťmon game too, those last two baffle everyone who are into gaming from my experience lol.

    I'm not someone who avoids popular shit by the way, I just don't really care about watching or playing much stuff, specially nowadays, I may take a look at Gargoyle after learning Xanatos isn't boring like Light though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, he definitely didn't keep his cool when he was about to crash into a tanker of Pumpkin Bombs even if he survived .
    He looked scared to make his faked death more convincing, clearly .

    But yeah, that's one of the very few times he does anything besides being smug and overconfident, there are some other situations too like when Vulture captured him, flew around with him and Norman screamed a bit whenever Vulture dropped him, but again, very few times lol.

    Weisman's penchant for this dates back to his Captain Atom run in the 80's (?). Wade Eiling was basically a proto-Xanatos manipulating and maneuvering Nate to fulfill his goals and being such a smug piece of @#$%. He didn't get any comeuppance (as far as I'm aware) until he went full Supervillain, and Weisman didn't even like that.
    Was Eiling becoming a super villain part of Weisman's run? 'Cause if not I can see him not liking it, and if it was part of his run, maybe it's something editorial asked for? Or his own idea that he regretted later...

    I also didn't even know Weisman wrote for comics at some point, always assumed he was just a nerd who got a chance to make a few super-hero cartoons, with a noticeable preference for specific eras of some characters, like, YJ Batman from season 1 and 2 is basically Bronze age Batman, maybe a nicer version, Wally being only a comic relief shows a preference for Kid Flash over Flash, specially considering Speed Force isn't a thing in YJ, Luthor is only influenced by post-Crisis, Zatanna is not Bruce's age and is on the younger side (Though she wasn't as young as Dick back in her debut and once her background got more developed either lol), Mars isn't destroyed so J'onn isn't its only/one of the few survivor/survivors, hell, the Team itself is basically early Titans plus Conner and M'gann (And Conner and M'gann are explicitly newcomers while Dick, Wally, Kaldur'ahm and Speedy are friends for years), and from what I hear, Donna isn't included because of rights issues, stuff like that.
    Last edited by Lukmendes; 05-26-2022 at 06:07 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  8. #7058
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Was Eiling becoming a super villain part of Weisman's run? 'Cause if not I can see him not liking it, and if it was part of his run, maybe it's something editorial asked for? Or his own idea that he regretted later..
    It was in Grant Morrison's JLA run.

  9. #7059
    Fantastic Member Mai Zen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Have they? I haven't caught up with recent episodes (Stopped at Kaldur'ahm's), but I don't remember any Martian besides M'gann being impressive, the others are just kinda there.

    Even Green Beetle, who should be the most busted character back in season 2, barely showed off his powers, Black Beetle generally looked like the toughest one.
    Martians are still susceptible against fire or heat. They need a way though to overcame the psionic mind attack, well Rocket and Orion manage to overcame it with willpower

  10. #7060
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Well this is certainly a show that is happening
    For when my rants on the forums just arenít enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  11. #7061
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post


    Well this is certainly a show that is happening
    It'll give it one season.

  12. #7062
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post


    Well this is certainly a show that is happening
    Well, this is...a show.

    I dunno, this feels like a step back from the Arrowverse? Scaled things back, barely any real, legitimate, costumes, feels more like a Smallville-esque take on Batman than a proper Superhero show, questionable character choices, no recognizable villains other than a non-Two Face Harvey Dent...and anchored by some original character.

    I guess they're skipping straight from Ward to full on adopted kid who thinks Bruce Wayne is his dad. Pretty good for an OC .

    So we don't get a Bruce Wayne actor but we get a dramatic portrait and a Bat-Corpse...oh yeah, I guess everyone knows Bruce Wayne was Batman now.

    Duela feels like discount Alice from Batwoman.

    Harper and Cullen are criminals? Jeez.

    So they're not going to give Carrie an outright Robin costume or even outright call her Robin...Ugh, this feels so low-effort.

    Looks like Steph goes to high school with Turner and that's how she gets involved? She seems like the obvious love interest (and fooling around).

    I liked to hope the show picks up when they get to the Batcave, but I have no reason to expect that.

  13. #7063
    Spectacular Member agentofthebat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post


    Well this is certainly a show that is happening
    I dont think I can even watch one episode. That looks rough.

  14. #7064
    Astonishing Member Johnrevenge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post


    Well this is certainly a show that is happening
    It looks...cheap...even for CW standards of cheapness...

  15. #7065
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I feel like I took a step back in time to when comic book TV shows barely put any effort in.

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