Dr. Doom and the Mandarin switch adversaries...

[Blackid]

Act 1

Doom calls Mandarin up and they agree to take on their "friends" adversaries... Doom goes and handles Iron Man (and Avengers if need be) while Mandy (for short) takes on Fantastic Four....

How do they do handling their "friends" problems?


Act 2

Their argument of who has it worse spills into the streets. They decide to take each other on. How do they do? (If Crimson Bands are too much, they are off the table)

[MorphyVSFischer]

Mandarin should do ok in a direct fight against the FF, problem is Reed doing anything in his lab.
Doom kills Iron man, straight up.
For the fight against each other, even without the Bands, Doom is to durable, to much esoteric crap, he wins.

[Anarchist]

Yeah, and with prep Doom stomps even harder.
Iron Man would need some serious one-sided prep to even damage the guy.

[big_adventure]

Mandarin should do ok in a direct fight against the FF, problem is Reed doing anything in his lab.
Doom kills Iron man, straight up.
For the fight against each other, even without the Bands, Doom is to durable, to much esoteric crap, he wins.

Doom DOES kill Iron Man straight up, but it's (nearly) solely because of the Bands - armor-on-armor, Stark's is better, and Tony's a better fighter in armor as well.

[Blackid]

Doom DOES kill Iron Man straight up, but it's (nearly) solely because of the Bands - armor-on-armor, Stark's is better, and Tony's a better fighter in armor as well.

Don't forget I said Bands not included.

[da noble savage]

Doom DOES kill Iron Man straight up, but it's (nearly) solely because of the Bands - armor-on-armor, Stark's is better, and Tony's a better fighter in armor as well.

It's not like the Bands are the only magic he has access to. Not to mention doom's tech feat's trump tony's I mean don't get me wrong tony's got some great tech but doom's prep even with just tech alone is beyond tony.

[heretic]

Act 1

Doom calls Mandarin up and they agree to take on their "friends" adversaries... Doom goes and handles Iron Man (and Avengers if need be) while Mandy (for short) takes on Fantastic Four....

How do they do handling their "friends" problems?

Sue can keep the Mandarin off, if not contained, long enough for Reed to slap together something.

Stark? On his best day he can just about match Doom in armor design. Too bad Vic has the edge in so many other areas.

Act 2

Their argument of who has it worse spills into the streets. They decide to take each other on. How do they do? (If Crimson Bands are too much, they are off the table)

Doom probably still takes it. He has other spells.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Doesn't Doom keep time manipulation and dimension dumping tech on his standard armors?

[big_adventure]

Doesn't Doom keep time manipulation and dimension dumping tech on his standard armors?

In general, no. He has time and dimensional kit generally in separate platforms.

Most recent time travel feats for him:

Mighty Avengers arc pre-Dark Reign. This is the arc where Tony's armor proved specifically vulnerable to Doom's Crimson Bands. Tony's armor also proved to have no real vulnerability to Doom's other magic (in the past, running on backup power and off his normal grid, his armor no-sold a point-blank shot Doom was trying to kill him with when totally bloodlusted/enraged), and his armor was generally superior otherwise to Doom's armor+magic (in their initial head-on match, Doom's defenses were failing against Stark's assault somewhat more quickly than Stark's defenses were failing against Doom's). In this arc, they got time-dumped backwards (Doom, Sentry and Tony) and only got forward again by breaking into the Baxter Building and using the time machine there.

Iron Man Fatal Frontier - Future Doom comes back to mess with Stark. But we never see Future Doom time-travel under his own armor's power - it's all prep for the guy there. Who, by the way, flat-out admits that Tony's armor tech is better than his own - note this is future Doom.

[Pendaran]

Doom DOES kill Iron Man straight up, but it's (nearly) solely because of the Bands - armor-on-armor, Stark's is better, and Tony's a better fighter in armor as well.

Ehh. Doom could spam mindless ones or throw that zorch in the soul thing around or etc. He has other magic.

Tony's armor also proved to have no real vulnerability to Doom's other magic (in the past, running on backup power and off his normal grid, his armor no-sold a point-blank shot Doom was trying to kill him with when totally bloodlusted/enraged), and his armor was generally superior otherwise to Doom's armor+magic (in their initial head-on match, Doom's defenses were failing against Stark's assault somewhat more quickly than Stark's defenses were failing against Doom's).

None of that had anything to do with Doom's magic.

[big_adventure]

Ehh. Doom could spam mindless ones or throw that zorch in the soul thing around or etc. He has other magic.

As far as "spamming" mindless ones - when has he ever spammed large numbers of the things? He's not Dormammu or anything. He's got some other stuff, but honestly, most of it depends on a) him hitting (something hard to do against the quicker Stark) and b) more importantly, requires a charge-time, so there is some warning.

None of that had anything to do with Doom's magic.

It explicitly did, on panel. Well, OK, the in the first fight, it isn't really sure - Doom is extremely fond of mixing magic and tech based blasts, but the first fight didn't identify that explicitly. But the second one DEFINITELY did - just after they did the time warp again, Doom fired off a blast with intent to kill, Tony's armor identified it as a combination tech and magic blast, and Tony's shields, on backup power, no-sold that ****.


Look, you know that I'm not arguing that a full-powered Doom loses to Stark, but if you take away his one-shot trick (the bands), it's a hell of a fight at least. Doom doesn't really have anything else in his prep-free arsenal that can (EDIT: ) instantly down Stark.

[MichaelC]

With Mandarin it depends on which Mandarin shows up. Sometimes he's this combo of mad scientist and bloodthirsty savage akin to Gorrilla Grodd or, to use an FF villain, Blastarr. That wouldn't be a problem for the FF, and I can even see Johnny making some crack about how much this guy acts like a Blastaar rip-off. Other times he plays Lex Luthor corporate chess, and that CAN be a problem for the FF. They been caused severe problems by political machinations more than once. Weren't they, irrc, even rendered broke a while back, just after Waid's run?

[big_adventure]

With Mandarin it depends on which Mandarin shows up. Sometimes he's this combo of mad scientist and bloodthirsty savage akin to Gorrilla Grodd or, to use an FF villain, Blastarr. That wouldn't be a problem for the FF, and I can even see Johnny making some crack about how much this guy acts like a Blastaar rip-off. Other times he plays Lex Luthor corporate chess, and that CAN be a problem for the FF. They been caused severe problems by political machinations more than once. Weren't they, irrc, even rendered broke a while back, just after Waid's run?

It's happened more than once, I believe. They were flat-out put out of business after Heroes Return - the government seized everything, patents included, so everybody had to get jobs.

[Pendaran]

It explicitly did, on panel. Well, OK, the in the first fight, it isn't really sure - Doom is extremely fond of mixing magic and tech based blasts, but the first fight didn't identify that explicitly. But the second one DEFINITELY did - just after they did the time warp again, Doom fired off a blast with intent to kill, Tony's armor identified it as a combination tech and magic blast, and Tony's shields, on backup power, no-sold that ****.

In the first fight, especially when his armor will later both in that fight and in other ones call out when Doom is using magic ****, saying Doom was using magic **** anyway doesn't really work. The second thing you are referring to is not an incident of Tony's basic armor and shields "no selling" something. When Tony's armor has to call a massive external force field around himself to block a shot, that's not what that is. That's explicit effort to block a single shot. You talk like he took it on his armor's basic qualities. Unless you feel Iron Man normally flies around with external force bubbles around himself, that's a specific action being invoked to block a thing.

While we're there that's the same issue where Doom demonstrates he has things like non point and shoot magic that targets the spirit directly as far as the "spirit reversal spell" he cast on the Sentry. I'm dubious on Tony's armor dealing with his spirit getting, y'know, reversed.

As far as "spamming" mindless ones - when has he ever spammed large numbers of the things?

In the same set of comics you're talking about he goes to Morgana LeFay to ask her to teach him how to summon **** like that. She does. He then does in the Avengers fight in Mighty Avengers 11, they overpower and take out Ares, Wonder Man, and Carol Danvers alike. And while the closest of anyone there to, for instance, the class 100 crowd is Wonder Man (being the diet coke of that stratum), that's good enough to be a huge problem for Iron Man. The most you could say is that they weren't exactly tradition to the creature type, but even then, whatever they were, he can summon them, and they overpowered as a giant gooey mass of thing who they overpowered.

[big_adventure]

In the first fight, especially when his armor will later both in that fight and in other ones call out when Doom is using magic ****, saying Doom was using magic **** anyway doesn't really work. The second thing you are referring to is not an incident of Tony's basic armor and shields "no selling" something. When Tony's armor has to call a massive external force field around himself to block a shot, that's not what that is. That's explicit effort to block a single shot. You talk like he took it on his armor's basic qualities. Unless you feel Iron Man normally flies around with external force bubbles around himself, that's a specific action being invoked to block a thing.

In that incarnation, and specifically in that arc, his armor did all of its protection via fields of some kind. In the first combat, neither Tony nor Doom specifically raised any extra fields - they just had their armor's field status declining as each of them piled the power into the other. In the second thing, when Doom went for the kill-shot in the past, Tony again didn't raise any additional defense that I saw - it was just the built-in field his armor uses for durability. At least, that's how I took it. Of course, if he's got to face Doom, the first command to the armor is going to be "SHIELDS!" in any case, so it's kind of a moot point.

While we're there that's the same issue where Doom demonstrates he has things like non point and shoot magic that targets the spirit directly as far as the "spirit reversal spell" he cast on the Sentry. I'm dubious on Tony's armor dealing with his spirit getting, y'know, reversed.

Eh, perhaps - I kind of chalked that one up (perhaps wrongly) as something he both had to kind of stand there to cast and something that was effective primarily on someone as easy to **** with as a not-all-that-together Sentry. Bob was pretty weaksauce in the arc, and was fragile-as-hell mentally.

But sure, perhaps a viable tactic.

In the same set of comics you're talking about he goes to Morgana LeFay to ask her to teach him how to summon **** like that. She does. He then does in the Avengers fight in Mighty Avengers 11, they overpower and take out Ares, Wonder Man, and Carol Danvers alike. And while the closest of anyone there to, for instance, the class 100 crowd is Wonder Man (being the diet coke of that stratum), that's good enough to be a huge problem for Iron Man. The most you could say is that they weren't exactly tradition to the creature type, but even then, whatever they were, he can summon them, and they overpowered as a giant gooey mass of thing who they overpowered.

Ah, yes, I recall that now. They were ground-bound, though, weren't they?